Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

How to Run a Wildly Successful Capital Campaign with Amy Eisenstein

March 23, 2022 Julia Campbell Season 1 Episode 29
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
How to Run a Wildly Successful Capital Campaign with Amy Eisenstein
Show Notes Transcript

Capital campaigns are usually organized as big, multi year fundraising efforts, designed to get an organization to the next level of programming and service. But it doesn't always have to be about a new building or a renovation.

Capital campaigns can be about technology and rebranding - whatever needs to be done to build the capacity of an organization to jump to another level of service.  You'll know success if at the end of the campaign, your community and your organization looks and feels different than when you started.
 
My guest this week is Amy Eisenstein, ACFRE. Amy has been a development professional and fundraising consultant for more than 20 years. She is also the CEO of the Capital Campaign Toolkit.  Recognized as a leading expert in her field, she helps small and large nonprofits alike raise millions of dollars through major gift and capital campaigns.

Here are some of the topics we discussed:

  • How to know when or if it's time to run a capital campaign
  • How to decide what to raise money for during a capital campaign
  • What needs to be in place before starting a campaign
  • The very first thing you need to do when starting out

Connect with Amy:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-eisenstein-acfre-1201658/
https://capitalcampaigntoolkit.com/podcast/
https://capitalcampaigntoolkit.com/
https://www.amyeisenstein.com/

Do me a favor? Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts (or your podcast player of choice) - it helps this podcast get seen by more people that would enjoy it!

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online. 

Julia's happy clients include Mastercard, GoFundMe, Facebook, Meals on Wheels America, the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and the Boys & Girls Clubs of America. 

Julia Campbell:

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Alright, hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the nonprofit nation podcast. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I am thrilled to be here with you today. Thank you so much for listening. We have a fantastic guest on the podcast today someone that I've been following for years talking to for years, just really enjoying working with for years, Amy Eisenstein, and Amy is an AC F R. E, which I hope you will tell us about. And she's the CEO and co founder of the capital campaign toolkit. Her published books include major gift fundraising for small shops, raising more with less I know a lot of us can identify with that. And 50 asks, In 50 weeks, Amy became an AFP certified master trainer in 2009, and served as the president of the board of AFP, New Jersey and 2014 through 2015. She became a certified fundraising executive CFRE in 2004, and received the A CFRE in 2013. And she you go to her website, she's got a lot of free resources. Amy eisenstein.com capital campaign tool kit.com. Amy, I'm just thrilled to have you here today.

Amy Eisenstein:

Thank you so much, Julia. I appreciate you having me.

Julia Campbell:

Hey, so what is an ACF? Ari?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, that's the Advanced Certification designation for fundraisers. There's only about 120 of us in the world at this time. So it's the CFRA certified fundraising executive designation advanced.

Julia Campbell:

Oh, fantastic. Well, that's awesome. So it seems like you've been involved with nonprofits for a few years. Can you tell us about your story? How you got involved?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yes. So you know, it started, I could go back to childhood. But I always wanted to help people, right. So I went to graduate school for nonprofit management. And I knew I wanted to help people and the way that that seemed to work out, I think a lot of people fall into fundraising. So I fell into fundraising, right, because you can't run a nonprofit without fundraising. So I worked in the as a direct line fundraiser for more than a decade, before branching out on my own were a now it led me to creating the capital campaign toolkit. And we really, you know, our philosophy is we help organizations do lots of good, big, good things here at the capital campaign toolkit. So that's sort of in a nutshell,

Julia Campbell:

what is a capital campaign just to make sure that me and you, my listeners are on the same page? Because I think there might be some confusion. So how do you define a capital campaign?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, a capital campaign is a big, multi year fundraising effort, the goal of which is to get the organization, the nonprofit to the next level of program and service. So really is about catapulting your organization to the next level, they probably should have been called capacity campaign, because sometimes a capital campaign includes a building either a renovation or a new building, but sometimes they don't. It can be about startup and new programs and services. It can be about technology and rebranding, it's really about whatever you need to do to build the capacity of your organization to get really to jump to another level of service. So at the end of the campaign, your community, your organization looks and feels different than when you started.

Julia Campbell:

Wow, I love that definition. And how do leaders know when it's time to do a campaign?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, that's a good question. Often a campaign is born out of a strategic planning process that most organizations do every three or so years. and it will be obvious to the people running the organization and volunteering with the organization that it's really time for the next level, the next iteration of their programs and services. So that might be an indicator, sometimes an organization outgrows the building that they're in or outgrows the programs and services. So it's absolutely necessary to do a campaign. I like to think about capital campaigns as every once in a while campaigns, they're very different from your annual fundraising. They're not done annually. They're generally done every 10 or even 20 years for long term needs. But we are seeing campaigns done more frequently. But still there for big long term needs, multi year campaigns that you would do every once in a while.

Julia Campbell:

Is it always a building? Or it can be for capacity, like you said, so what are some examples? Some more examples?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, so often capital campaigns include building or renovations or new buildings, but they definitely do not have to more and more we're seeing capital campaigns that, that grow other areas of capacity, like new or startup programs and services, technology and infrastructure, endowment, rebranding, so all aspects of long term things needs that would grow your capacity, the capacity of your organization, so it can include new staff, like I said, technology equipment, endowment, the list goes on and on. Yeah.

Julia Campbell:

What are some of the things that need to be in place to do a capital campaign? Do you need to have an active fundraising board? Do you need to have a full staff? What are sort of some of the components?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, so I think, you know, it's interesting to think about what you need to have a successful campaign. And yes, I think you need to have some fundraising capacity, you know, everybody starts at a different place. So some organizations have robust major gift programs, others don't really when they start a campaign, a campaign really supercharges your fundraising. So whatever level you're at, you grow in terms of capacity and fundraising when you do a campaign. Clearly, having professional staff from the campaign helps, I think it's challenging when it's an all volunteer organization. You need some processes and systems, like donor management software, so that you can collect and report on gifts and track gifts, and thank you notes and things like that. So there's some basic tools and resources that you do want to have in place before you embark on a campaign. And hopefully that answers the

Julia Campbell:

question. So if someone listening now is their interest is piqued, and they say, we do have a capacity issue technology issue an endowment, we maybe want to, you know, valper on our building, or maybe our building is crumbling, which happens to a lot of nonprofits. What should the next step be? What's the very first step to kind of dip your toe in the water?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, so I think it is sitting down with staff and volunteers and saying, what are our needs? What is the vision for the future? And what do we need to do to get there? So is it a new building? Is it new programs and services? Is it staff? Is it equipment? Is it technology? What are the needs and making a long list of those needs? And those are called campaign objectives? Right? What are you actually doing the fundraising for? And then you would assign price tags to some of those things. And that would be your initial campaign working goal. And from that, you could create a case for support, which is why should donors give and why should donors care? So those are the three big components before you would launch into something called the feasibility study where you really test your plans and your case with the biggest potential donors and philanthropic leaders in your community to see if your campaign is viable.

Julia Campbell:

That's incredible. So is the feasibility study. Tell me more about the feasibility study and what goes into that?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, so I shouldn't have said, to see whether or not your campaign is viable. So, you know, I think I'm perpetuating a myth that I don't want to do there. I think a lot of people are afraid to do a feasibility study because they do worry that it's going to come back and say you can't do a campaign. The reality is that when you make a an initial campaign plan and go out and test it with your biggest supporters, nine The 9% of the time what comes back is how to do the campaign, how to get ready for the campaign? How much you can raise? You know, sometimes the feasibility study says, yes, you can go for your whole vision and your whole dream project. And it seems likely that you'll be able to raise it. Other times the feasibility study says, Well, you know, maybe, maybe you aimed a little high, and we need to scale back the plans and the program a little bit and scale back the goal. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't do a campaign, it just means you may not be able to do your dream project. So really, the feasibility study is about taking your initial campaign plans, a specific campaign plan and goal and testing it with your biggest potential donors.

Julia Campbell:

Oh, wow, I love that. So how do you know what the goal should be? And I run into this all the time, because in my work, I help clients specifically with digital fundraising campaigns. And either they have a goal in mind. Usually, they've never done one before. So either they have a goal in mind that they kind of just made up. Or they asked me, How do we even know what to raise? So can you give people some tips on how to set the right goal for a capital campaign?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yes. So specifically, with a capital campaign, you want to start with? What is the vision for the organization? And how much will that cost to achieve?

Julia Campbell:

Oh, I love that. Yeah,

Amy Eisenstein:

I don't really worry about how much you can raise at the beginning. I want to know, what do you want to do? What's the impact you're going to make? And whether that costs a million dollars, or 10 million or 100 million? I want to first see what is the big vision of the organization? Because that is what's going to motivate donors. So yeah. So start there, start with what your needs are in order to really accomplish your goals and your mission. And then we'll figure out how much it costs. And hopefully that can be the working goal of your campaign. That's the initial the initial working goal.

Julia Campbell:

Do you do the feasibility study first? Or do you do the goal first? Or is this like a chicken or the egg thing?

Amy Eisenstein:

No, no, that is an excellent question. And a lot of people misunderstand and think that the feasibility study tests how much you can raise. But it kind of doesn't make sense. If you think about it, you can't really go to donors and say, How much do you think we can raise? Because they have no idea? They have no idea. They couldn't give you any advice or quality experience on that? So you really do you figure out what the vision is? How much it will cost first. And then with that very specific plan of what you want to accomplish and how much that price tag is. That's what you test with donors in a feasibility study. And you say, what do you think of our plan? You know, given this philanthropic community, do you think we can raise this? What do you see your role as being? So that's you go test a specific plan and a specific goal with donors when you do the feasibility study?

Julia Campbell:

Wow, I love starting from the vision. Because that's exactly what I teach with marketing with digital fundraising, you have to start with a vision. If people are not on board with your vision, they're not going to be on board with your goal. And they're not going to be on board with the what they need to be on board with the why. So I think that's incredibly important to have that nailed down. And then my other question, how do staff members and board members participate? What are what is everyone's sort of individual role here?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, so the good news and maybe the bad news, but really, the good news is that everybody has a role to play in a capital campaign. And it's an all hands on deck endeavor, because it really is often the biggest fundraising campaign effort that an organization has ever undertaken. So everybody has to get involved. Our philosophy at the capital campaign toolkit is that there's not just one massive campaign committee, but that there's fluid ad hoc, come and go sub committees that function throughout the campaign. So you can invite lots of people to volunteer and participate. So you might have a certain group of volunteers during the feasibility study phase. And then a different group of volunteers during the leadership gifts phase and a different group of volunteers during the public phase. And they all fall under a big umbrella of campaign committee, but they don't have to participate for the whole duration of the campaign. They come in, they go as their skill sets are needed and useful. And so none of the volunteers hopefully get burned out or disillusion, but they work where their value is highest and most needed.

Julia Campbell:

So who makes up the campaign committee?

Amy Eisenstein:

I mean, it starts usually with a core group of people, the Executive Director and CEO The development director, hopefully you have fundraising staff, and probably the board chair, maybe one other board member. And that's the initial core committee that sees the campaign through from start to finish. And like I said, then for other aspects of the campaign, other phases of the campaign, you invite other volunteers and staff members to participate as appropriate and necessary.

Julia Campbell:

I love that how many how many phases are in a camp, a typical campaign?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yes. So we talk about seven phases of the campaign, the capital campaign toolkit, most people have probably heard of the quiet phase and the public phase. But by breaking a campaign down into seven phases, it's actually much more manageable because you attack the project in chunks. And so we've broken it down into seven phases.

Julia Campbell:

And now a word from our sponsor, I'm here to tell you that this podcast episode is sponsored by my newest free training, social media in 20 minutes per day. This is where I give you my exact framework and process to schedule and organize your time, so that social media does not take over your entire day. And to do list, watch the replay for free at social media in 20. That's to zero the numbers to zero.com. And be sure to tag me on social to let me know what you think. That's social media and twenty.com. Thanks for listening, and enjoy. How much do you think you need to raise before the public face before you go to the general public?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, that's a good question. So we recommend that you raise 70, or sometimes even 80% of your campaign goal, in the quiet phase, before you go to the public, or publicly announce your goal and ask the community to participate, we want to go to the public, when you're almost at the finish line, you know, 70 80% of the way there, and you invite everybody at that point to chip in and get you over the finish line.

Julia Campbell:

So a lot of this is done behind the scenes, with your major donors and with other people that you've identified as potential partners. I actually really think that's a huge point to make. Because I know when you had me on your podcast, and doing a, you know, a webinar for your audience, the topic was how to use social media in a capital campaign. And I wonder, I mean, you just wrote a blog post about this as well. And I know we're completely on the same page around this. So I think oftentimes, people get it backwards. They want to just start announcing the goal and talking about the campaign and talking about the committee. And, you know, it's so exciting. And there's all this work being done. But tell us why we shouldn't do that, and maybe how we should use social media?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah. Well, I think there's an important distinction to be made between talking about the vision and the project, versus the campaign and the fundraising aspects. So it's the campaign and the fundraising aspects that we want to sort of keep under wraps and keep more quiet, until we get to the quote unquote, public phase where we ask the whole community to contribute and participate up until that point. So during the you know, the first two thirds of the campaign, you can absolutely tease the subject, right, get people excited, say, hey, coming soon look for look for a new project or a new building. We're not going to give details yet we don't have the specifics. We're still working through them. So I think it's perfectly appropriate throughout to tease it and say, Oh, my gosh, coming soon, can't wait, can't wait for the big reveal. And you can talk about your big vision, but you just don't want to announce a goal, and don't want to invite people to participate until you've raised a significant chunk of the money.

Julia Campbell:

Exactly. I know. I think that people fail to understand that social media should really be used to build that community and trust first, rather than just use it to fundraise constantly. I think people are going to get tired of that. Another important point, and this is something that actually I'm interested to hear how you'll answer it, because this is something that happens in digital fundraising campaigns. What do you do if slash when your campaign stalls?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, so we like to try and prevent that from happening, of course. So we want you to set up your campaign for success from the start and develop A good plan and do a feasibility study so that you don't get yourself into a stalled position. But, you know, it does happen, of course. So if your campaign stalls, we would look at all right, where are we? Where can we go back to? Who are some of the donors that have already committed that might have ideas, suggestions, recommendations, or even be able to contribute more? So we go to them and ask their advice and say, look, here's the reality of the situation, what do we do? You know, this isn't for the broad public, but for some of your key supporters, you want to go and get their input. There are other strategies and tactics, of course, to use for a stalled campaign. But I think we try and analyze, you know, what, what is the cause of the stall? Where did we go wrong? What can we back up and do over? Where do we go from here? So it takes a discussion, and it is disappointing and frustrating, but it happens, even from the best laid plans. But if you can, you know, I would say to people, don't wing your campaign. I mean, honestly, that's why we created the capital campaign toolkit, there is a strategy, there is a process, we have a step by step guide, we have people to support and guide you along the way. Don't make this up. It's not a wheel you should be reinventing. There is a process and a plan so that you don't find yourself in a stalled position.

Julia Campbell:

I love that it's don't wing it, don't reinvent the wheel. There are tried and true, battle tested plans here that we can use. On Amy eisenstein.com, you wrote a blog that I really liked, all around building resilience and building fundraising confidence. Both, I believe and no are critical to any kind of fundraising success, but especially, I believe in a capital campaign, because you have to solicit incredibly large gifts, probably larger gifts than you've ever solicited. So what are what are some of your pieces of advice for fundraisers to build their resilience to build that confidence? To go out and ask for these gifts?

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, that is such a good question. It does take a lot of confidence. And it does take a lot of resilience. I think one thing you can do is practice and rehearse. Right? So sort of goes back to this is not a winging it type of situation. So who are you going to practice and rehearse with? Who do you know that has more experience than you do at doing some of these things? Whether it's a consultant or your CEO, or a colleague? So what can you do to prepare to get into the situation? Or, you know, the solicitation, we have board members practice asking each other and it's not a fake, ask it's a real ask. But then afterwards, they ask for feedback. How did we do what should we have done better, don't make assumptions that this comes naturally to people, people need to be given the opportunity to practice and rehearse and prepare and get trained. And also, go into it with the understanding that some people are not going to give the gifts that you hope they will. And if you've made a solid plan, you will have two to three to four prospective donors for each gift you need. And so getting some nose or lower gifts than you hoped for is built into the strategy and part of the process. And to me, if you're not getting a nose, you're not asking enough. So just knowing that you're going to get some nose and it's okay.

Julia Campbell:

If you're not getting nose, you're not asking enough. I love that. How do you coach your clients to deal with the nose? I know a lot of people take the personally I remember when I was a development director, and I would just feel so dejected.

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah. I mean, listen, everybody has charities that they love, and that they care about, hopefully, I guess most people that they support. And the question is finding the people that your mission and your vision is the right match for. And I know it's hard not to take it personally because some of these missions are so close to the fundraisers hearts as they should be. But I think it's just about saying, Alright, if this isn't right for you, is there anybody else that you know of that might care about this issue that we should be talking to or what are your top charities? Because if I'm talking to somebody and their top three charities don't match mine, then I'm not going to spend any more time with them. And that's okay. I'm gonna say, All right, well, thank you for your time, I'm not going to try and convince them or change their mind. It's not about that that's not what fundraising is about.

Julia Campbell:

I love that we could talk about that for another 45 minutes. Fundraising is not about manipulation. It's not about changing someone's mind. It's about inviting someone to participate in a cause that they care about. And I know you see this all the time, Amy, where boards will say, oh, let's just go ask the richest person in town, or let's just go to the biggest Foundation, the biggest corporation without doing any research on whether or not this is a cause that's aligned with their values and with the things that they support. So I really think it's important that you brought that up, because I know that a lot of organizations struggle with that. They think, oh, well, just because someone has money they're going to give to us, and why are they not giving to us? But we have to make that alignment with our cause and our issue,

Amy Eisenstein:

right, so one of the ways to prevent some of that disappointment or surprise, is to actually do a really solid feasibility study. And I know that a lot of organizations either have had a nonprofit leaders have had bad experience with feasibility studies in the past, or they think they should skip it, because they're going to do the campaign anyways. But what a good feasibility study does is actually sets you up for yeses in your asking, because it makes your biggest potential donors and community leaders and philanthropists, insiders and early adopters of your campaigns, because you've gone to them before the plans are finalized to ask for their feedback and input and hopefully gotten them excited about the project or the cause. So that they want to say yes, when you come back to them.

Julia Campbell:

So just to shift gears a little bit, one of your passions, something you write a lot about is nonprofit leadership, specifically, how leaders need to fundraise. So what do you want to say out there, to the development director, who struggles with getting the executive directors, the board members, they don't see it as their duty to fundraise.

Amy Eisenstein:

So sometimes that's about looking for another job, right? I mean, it's tough. You know, it is the executive director and the CEOs responsibility to fundraise. I think it's really hard to go into a campaign with an executive director who doesn't see their responsibility as fundraising, board members. On the other hand, not every board member is going to fundraise, they're not all going to ask, they should all help with the process. Let's put it that way. They just

Julia Campbell:

open the process. And there's many different ways to do it. And you have a lot of information on your website. And I agree, and I think that when you get on a board, it's part of your job to assure or ensure the fiscal sustainability of the organization. I think that's just incredibly important. So I always reiterate that to my clients as well. So just to kind of, um, let's see, let's end on a note of what's new and exciting in the world of capital campaigns, and then kind of a two parter. How have they changed in the last two years?

Amy Eisenstein:

Well, that is a great question. So I have to say, I feel so proud of the work that we're doing at the capital campaign toolkit, because we are being really innovative. In a world of campaigns, which honestly hasn't changed for decades, there's not been a lot of development or growth in the capital campaign world. And we're doing some really interesting, innovative things. First of all, we have really flipped the model on how feasibility studies are done. Traditionally, a consultant is hired to go out and interview the donors and leaders of an organization. And we believe that the relationship should not be being built between a consultant and your donors, but you and your donors. And so we are guiding the process so that nonprofit leaders go out and have those conversations directly with donors as part of the feasibility study process. So that's one thing that's really new. The other thing, you know, one of the other things that we're doing is, is we really believe that nonprofit leaders should be in the driver's seat of their campaign. I guess that's the same kind of theme as the feasibility study. But we're providing all the tools, the support, the resources, and the guidance in a remote and virtual way, are leveraging technology so that nonprofit leaders have all the resources guys and support at their fingertips to lead successful campaigns. So those are just some of the things that we're doing that are, I think, different and creative. Now, of course, the pandemic has changed the way that campaigns function. And so feasibility studies, interviews, for the first time are being done on Zoom. And I think that that will continue. We've found that they're effective and efficient. And you know, a lot of nonprofits are ready to go back to all in person, but I think they should take a really good hard look and say, when does it make sense to meet with a donor on Zoom? Or have a committee meeting on Zoom? And when does it really make sense? When do we need to be in person? And when should we leverage technology when it's appropriate?

Julia Campbell:

And you can probably reach more donors, because not all of your donors are going to necessarily be local, they might have moved, but they still really care about what you're doing. They might be international, I mean, it just might not be accessible for you to see them in person. So I think it's going to be it's like a revolution and donor communications. And I've been loving to see it.

Amy Eisenstein:

Yeah, I agree with you. Honestly, we created the toolkit as a virtual and remote support system for nonprofit leaders way before COVID. And it has been interesting to watch people sort of catch on to our model, even though we set it up prior to COVID. Now everybody kind of gets it.

Julia Campbell:

I know, unfortunately, I was working with two different nonprofits. In 2020. We were supposed to work on the public phase of their capital campaign and launch it and do the social media marketing. And they ended up both canceling their campaign that was pretty devastating. That is devastating. Exactly. So I think that having these virtual tools, having this support system in place, and knowing that what you said, just coming back to the vision, and coming back to this is what is possible. With your gift. We're not just building this buildings, we want it. We're not just doing this upgrade, because we randomly thought we should do it. We are doing this to enhance our services to be able to enhance our solution to the problem that you as a donor care about. And with that messaging, I think people can be successful pandemic post pandemic, we were saying earlier, there's really no post pandemic, pandemic adjacent, uncertain times, turbulent times. But you'll be successful in bringing people in around a vision much more than $1 number or much more than, you know, a specific project itself. I think that that's so important to go back to so thank you, Amy. How can people get in touch with you? How can they learn more about the capital campaign toolkit and everything that you're doing?

Amy Eisenstein:

Oh, thank you, yes, just visit the capital campaign toolkit.com. We have lots of free resources and materials a step by step guide. We also offer free strategy sessions for anybody who wants to discuss their campaigns. So visit us at Capital Campaign toolkit calm, and we'll be happy to talk to you.

Julia Campbell:

Thank you, Amy, and take care. And everyone out there that is interested in capital campaigns, I really encourage you to check that out. And there's a lot of free resources on there. There's some groups, there's some fantastic paid resources on there. But it's just so important more than ever, that we start thinking we start being more forward thinking and proactive in our fundraising. So once again, Amy, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Amy Eisenstein:

Thank you for having me.

Julia Campbell:

Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn