Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

Robots Make Bad Fundraisers with Steven Shattuck

April 27, 2022 Julia Campbell Season 1 Episode 34
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Robots Make Bad Fundraisers with Steven Shattuck
Show Notes Transcript

In some ways, we're in a golden age of fundraising. There have never been more ways to capture attention, rally supporters, generate revenue, and measure fundraising performance than there are today. The accessibility of this technology has also never been greater, even to the smallest charities.

But with all the software, tools, apps and intelligence available to us, why has fundraising performance stagnated? Has technology actually gotten in the way of building a personal connection with our supporters?
 
In the latest episode of Nonprofit Nation, Steven Shattuck tell us why robots make bad fundraisers - and how we can apply time-tested principles of philanthropy to the modern technology available, with the goal of keeping the donors we already have, inspiring new donors to give, and maintaining the sanity of our team members. 

Steven Shattuck is Chief Engagement Officer at Bloomerang. A prolific writer and speaker, he curates Bloomerang’s sector-leading educational content, and hosts a weekly webinar series which features the top thought-leaders in the nonprofit sector. He is the author of Robots Make Bad Fundraisers – How Nonprofits Can Maintain the Heart in the Digital Age, published by Bold and Bright Media (2020).

Here are some of the topics we discussed:

  • How technology has gotten in the way of building a personal connection with donors
  • Statistics on donor retention (spoiler: it's bad) and how we can retain more of our donors
  • How fundraisers can use modern technology to keep more of the donors that they have
  • Why fundraising is more important than ever in turbulent times

Connect with Steven:
https://twitter.com/StevenShattuck
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenshattuck/

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About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass, ​3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Convert

Julia Campbell:

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. All right. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I am thrilled to have another episode for you today. Thank you so much again for listening. Today. I have with me, my friend and esteemed banana costume where I'll have to put that photo in the shownotes Steven Shattuck. He doesn't really need an introduction, but we will give him one. He's the chief engagement officer at Bloomerang. I believe we met on Twitter. And then we met in person at cars camp, which we were trying to figure out what year and then we just I just said a lifetime ago. Stephen is a prolific writer and speaker and he curates Bloomerang sector leading educational content. And he hosts the weekly webinar series, one of the best in the business, which features the top thought leaders in the sector. Stephen got his start in the sector producing fundraising videos and other digital content for organizations like Butler University, the Girl Scouts, Christian Church Disciples of Christ and the American Heart Association. Steven volunteers his time on the project work group of the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, which you should all Google and I will put in the show notes. And this the study fundraising steering group at the Heart Center for Sustainable philanthropy at Plymouth University. He's also an AFP center for fundraising innovation committee member, and he sits on the faculty of the Institute for charitable giving. So he knows a little bit about fundraising and giving and Stephens, the author of one of the best books it should be on every nonprofit fundraiser bookshelf. Robots make bad fundraisers, how nonprofits can maintain the heart in the digital age, published by Bolden bright media who also published my second book, and we love them. So welcome, Steven. I'm so happy to have you here.

Steven Shattuck:

This is so much fun. Thanks for having me. And I found the banana the aforementioned banana picture. Well tweeted out March of 2019. It feels like longer all

Julia Campbell:

like it was 2019. You were saying it was 2015 2019? Yes, once again, a lifetime ago. I mean, all of that was a lifetime ago. So let's just let's hear about your your story. How'd you get started working in the sector?

Steven Shattuck:

Well, it's funny because telling the story really annoys my wife. When she hears these, these interviews and stuff, because she always wanted to work for nonprofits, and does she like aspire to it very early on in her college career, it's like, I'm going to graduate and I'm gonna help nonprofits is like, Okay, that sounds awesome. And then I was an English major, and wrote a lot of like bad poetry and the crappy memoir that every every works on, and I ended up working at a marketing agency did just so happened to serve nonprofits, basically, exclusively. And they made fundraising videos for things like Andy or galas. And we were doing direct mail campaigns, like we were sending DVDs in the mail to alumni to get them to give like, that was a long time ago. Wow. Forget 2019 DVDs in the mail yet, and it really worked. Actually, it might actually still work. Now that might be

Julia Campbell:

a comeback. You could come back. Well, I don't know. I don't have a DVD player. But

Steven Shattuck:

yes, you could fish one out perhaps.

Julia Campbell:

Maybe your computer could watch.

Steven Shattuck:

Yeah, right. But that's how I learned the craft, kind of in a roundabout way. And then I met Jay Love years later, and he was he was getting Bloomerang going and we kind of hit it off and working together at another company and became fast friends because we were both obviously had a heart for nonprofits. And so he said, Hey, why don't you come along and help me get this company going? And that was about 10 years ago. It's just kind of hard to believe. So Ben here since basically the first month and it's been a lot of fun because I get to meet fun people like you and talk about fundraising and you know, dress up and we're talking At events, so it's been great. Oh, I

Julia Campbell:

love that. And you do so much work specifically on fundraising trends, fundraising data, things like the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, the Center for fundraising innovation, you know, the Institute for charitable giving. So, we are going to pick your brain here, you know, you're known as this expert. What trends are you seeing right now? What do we need to pay attention to?

Steven Shattuck:

Yeah, it's, it's interesting, because I've been keeping my eye on it almost since it on a daily basis since the pandemic began, because, you know, probably won't surprise you to hear that our customers were asking like, what should we do? What is what's going on? What are you seeing other people do, you know, shouldn't be fundraising right now is a very common question that I received in the early days and other pandemic. And you know, that continued for a pretty long time after, still get that occasionally. And from what we can see from things like the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, like he mentioned, which is a collaboration between AFP and the Urban Institute, and giving Tuesday now, and a bunch of the software vendors like Bloomerang, neon Donor Perfect are all data providers. And then when you look at other things like Giving USA, you know, research that Adrian Sargeant, Jen Chang put out, all those things basically, have come to the conclusion, looking at all the data that donors really respond in times of crisis, in sometimes surprising ways, even when the economy is really tough, and people are out of work. And we're all quarantining and you know, having to get stimulus checks to make our rent. Despite all of those difficulties. 2020 was one heck of a philanthropic year, we had increases in donations, over 2019, the amount of donors we had a huge influx of first time donors, people who made their first gift in 2020, who had not given to those nonprofits previously. And the really interesting thing, Julia, is that looking at the 2021 data, which is still kind of coming in, right, we're recording this in early February 2021 seems to have been a continuation of 2020, which I know that that's true in a lot of different ways, right? It feels like it's still March 547, or whatever that date would be. But donors haven't stopped, you know, and donor said they were surveyed. You know, Cygnus research is survey donors halfway through 2021. And they were like, Yeah, we're gonna keep giving, like, we're might even give more than he gave last year, which was an increase over 2019 already. And if you look back on 2009 2001, like the.com, bubble, all the way back to the 80s, in every weird economy, or, you know, disaster, or, you know, strife that are either locally or the entire planet is going through, donors step up, and the nonprofit sector is pretty insulated. Now, I don't want to make anyone listening feel bad, because I know that there are a lot of nonprofits that had a horrible, tough last couple of years, you know, I'm thinking about like, performing arts, nonprofits, and like, my heart goes out to you. But what I want those folks to hear is Be encouraged because you have a great case for support. And there's a lot of generosity out there not to mention a lot of capacity, you know, thanks to the sort of capitalistic society that we live in, which is unfortunate. But if you ask, by and large people will give that that is the biggest takeaway I have taken away since the pandemic began. And we've seen this not just your Bloomerang customers, but like I said, broadly through a lot of this other research that has come out.

Julia Campbell:

So what do you think differentiated people that raised the money in 2020, and 21, from people that didn't.

Steven Shattuck:

So this is interesting, because we looked at this at least someone the Bloomerang customer subset, and not every nonprofit, you know, in the world uses Bloomerang. So take this with at least a little bit of a grain of salt. But there were two big things that stood out, especially in 2020. And kind of the early days of the pandemic. First was was that they asked like, they literally didn't stop sending emails, direct mail campaigns, and we can see that right amongst our users described by looking at the data and kind of the back end of our software, but more nuanced was, even among the folks who asked for money. There was a little bit of a bifurcation, the folks who asked and also sort of contextualized their need within the pandemic, in other words, how they were affected directly They raised more money than folks who did ask, but didn't mention the pandemic didn't, you know, talk about all the ways that they had been impacted, and maybe they weren't, you know, there were perhaps some organizations that weren't impacted by the pandemic, although I would imagine that the a pretty small group, in general, again, if you are in crisis, if you have a shortfall, if you have a big project, or if you know, you've changed your programs and services, because you can't, you know, operate in the way that you were pre pandemic, again, donors tend to respond to that increase need. The second thing, and this is something that, you know, I wrote my book, pre pandemic, but it was kind of edifying to see this actually take place was this concept of personal outreach, I think what happened is because of the pandemic, and you and I were talking about this, before we hit record, people were quarantined, people were feeling isolated. People were feeling powerless, right? The organizations that reached out personally made phone calls made, wrote personal emails, right, rather than sending a bulk email out a MailChimp or Constant Contact, or whatever, you know, opened up Gmail and wrote one email to one donor or one monthly donor, we saw a real strong correlation, not causation necessary, but a strong correlation between the organizations that were raising more money in 2020, than it did in 2019. They were doing those types of things making phone calls reaching out, and I think it was because some of the people on the other end of those communications, that may have been one of the few pieces of contact that they received from any human being, you know, maybe other than close friends and relatives, you think about, you know, the average age of an American donor, which is, you know, a person, you know, above 60, or 65. That outreach, I think, was probably really, really well received in a time of extreme isolation. And again, we have seen this continue through 2021, even though we aren't necessarily as isolated Now, thankfully, I know the pandemic is totally over. I don't mean to say that, but this concept of personal outreach, it may also be it's you said it, you know, things coming back, maybe it's just, it's a digital overload, that we are bombarded constantly by mass emails, and impersonal communications from robots or from our mass marketing, you know, people give to people, and when people are reaching back out to say, thank you, or to tell a quick story, or, you know, show interest in the donor like, hey, you know, thanks so much for your giving. How did you hear about us we have, why do you care about clean water in your community, like, we'd love to know your story as well, that it has always been a winning winning formula for fundraising. Right. But I think it was turned up to 11 during the pandemic, and those are definitely two things that we saw strong correlations with those organizations that seem to be having some of the best years ever. In 20 and 21.

Julia Campbell:

I heard Lynn Wester speak recently, and she was talking about the concept of agency, and how, during the pandemic, for her personally, it made her feel a little bit more in control when she could give to the cause that she cared about. And she saw that with her clients, and I saw that with mine too, donors were reaching out and saying, I'm glad your doors aren't closed, I'm glad you're still here. I'm glad to know that this cause you know, you're working on a cause a solution to a problem addressing a need in the community. And people are glad to see that you're not closing your doors and you're not shuttering your organization and it gives them a feeling of power. We don't talk about that enough. Like how good we feel, when we give and we feel like we're we're creating change in the world, even if it's $5 $10. So

Steven Shattuck:

absolutely, it rolled out of control, donating and you may be the only bit of power that you could reclaim and to have that acknowledged, you know, personally after the fact that's a that's a winning combination. So yeah, and you know, we're both parents and just like it's so hard for everybody in a lot of different ways. Yet donating may be the only way to feel like gosh, there's something I can do. I can't change what politicians do and and you know, I can't control a virus out of control but by golly this this museum is not going to go out of business or this library is not going to close its stores and dang these these kids still need after school meals. I can help with that. And I think that's why if you look back on any period of crisis, compared to the for profit industry, the nonprofit sector, really weathers those storms quite well. I think it's because there's just a natural generosity amongst our population and our culture that I don't think that gets celebrated, you know, nearly enough.

Julia Campbell:

I just love that. We still are not cynical yet. We might be next, but we're not cynical. You're Gen X, right?

Steven Shattuck:

I'm like, I'm a I'm 84. So I'm a cop. Oh, you're

Julia Campbell:

a millennial.

Steven Shattuck:

Wow, isn't it? It doesn't start at 83 i

Julia Campbell:

1980. I mean, who knows?

Steven Shattuck:

I didn't have a cell phones. I was 20. Well, DVDs in the mail and or discs? So

Julia Campbell:

millennials are very dark, though. They can be dark.

Steven Shattuck:

I know. Yeah. We came out of college. Right before that. That crash? That was a great start.

Julia Campbell:

Exactly. So actually, it's interesting, because in your in your book, which I know was released, pre pandemic, you know, robots make bad fundraisers, you wrote that? In some ways, we're in a golden age of fundraising. But also the fundraising performance has stagnated. So what did you mean in that context?

Steven Shattuck:

So the first part, kind of what I met was that, you know, I've been at this technology company for over a decade now. And just the advances I've seen, I don't mean our company, I mean, the entire technology sector, that serves nonprofits, I mean, you can do amazing things you can send thank you videos that are like super high quality, you know, within seconds, you can AB test, you know, anything, you want an email, a donation page, there, there are donation page, you know, widgets that all, you know, suggest certain gift amounts, depending on who's looking at them. There's so many cool things that we can do that even five years ago, let alone 10, you know, weren't available, or were too expensive, for kind of that average, you know, small to medium sized nonprofit. That's the other thing, the costs have come way down, which is really cool. But I think that this kind of a double edged sword with some of those things, because they tend to be very digital in nature, just good, right? It's that barrier to entry of giving is way down, you can become a donor, very easily easier than than ever in the, you know, the planet's history, which is great. I think what I'm concerned about what generated the book, but the idea for the book was that a lot of times communicating with those donors is very impersonal. Right? It's very robotic. You know, it's automated receipts that aren't really a thank you. Sometimes we don't even get the donor information

Julia Campbell:

to get an automated Thank you. Yeah, at all. Exactly.

Steven Shattuck:

Absolutely. And so with all of this technology that oftentimes seeks to automate, right, rather than sort of supplement the work of a fundraiser. That, to me is what is concerning, and we see this in the data, even data that's come out after the book, which suggests the one thing that I really see this manifest is first time donors, you think about the fact that it's never been easier to give you I mean, you can go to Facebook and click one button and be a donor, which is good, for a lot of reasons. But it's very often difficult to communicate with these people. And my concern is that a lot of the vendors kind of respond to what they see in the sector, we're overworked, we're underpaid or understaffed, we're just trying to get through the day. And a lot of vendors will come in and say, well, we'll save your time, right? We'll automate all that stuff. So you can worry about other things. And my response to that very often is well, wait a minute, what are those other things because other things right, because that, that that's high ROI activity to take time to call a donor and say thank you, right. And I've got a mountain of research that says that that is you you're really affected.

Julia Campbell:

Now it'd be Burke says that to remember slowly. For decades,

Steven Shattuck:

people have been saying this and it hasn't changed. In fact, I think it's it's gotten even more effective because of all those impersonal communications not just for nonprofits, but from from everyone from for profits are probably the biggest culprit of this. So when I kind of coach people on technology purchases or adoption, the litmus test is, is this going to help me build a personal relationship with a donor? If that is in the cards, right? And some donors don't want a personal relationship? You know, when I when I donate to my college roommates, peer to peer campaign, that's not the same, right because I'm supporting my buddy and not supporting that charity that they're raising money for. So also understand That distinction is also really important. And that's a very new concept. In terms of online peer to peer fundraising, which isn't totally new. When you think about maybe Memorial attributed gifts, there's a, there's a through line there. But again, looking at that pandemic data, it was those organizations that we're reaching out personally. And if that gets automated, like, oh, I can just set it and forget it, like, you know, the software is going to email my donors, and it's going to send a seven touch drip campaign. And it's like, Whoa, that could be good. But if you haven't made that personal connection, I think that you may be disappointed in the results of that automation. So that really, at the core, is what the book is about. And you're right, I wrote it pre pandemic. And it came out, I think, maybe July of 2020. And a lot of that ended up coming true, which I was sort of proud of, but also a little bummed out about.

Julia Campbell:

And now a word from our sponsor, I'm here to tell you that this podcast episode is sponsored by my newest free training, social media in 20 minutes per day. This is where I give you my exact framework and process to schedule and organize your time, so that social media does not take over your entire day. And to do list, watch the replay for free at social media in 20. That's to zero the numbers to zero.com. And be sure to tag me on social to let me know what you think. That's social media and twenty.com. Thanks for listening, and enjoy. No, it's still incredibly, incredibly pertinent because I actually believe that and I know, you saw this, that the pandemic increased the reliance on automation, and digital tools. And, you know, people working virtually people not being able to be in person not being able to have those events, those donor lunches, those touch points as tours parties. Exactly. So I completely I think this is made even more relevant. I just thought of an interesting question that I don't know if you have the answer to but is there data on whether like Facebook, fundraising, Instagram fundraising, has had an effect on donor retention data? Because I would imagine all of those people giving $5 on Giving Tuesday, but then you don't have their contact information. People know how I feel about this, you know, it's a double edged sword. It's like you talked about, but I think that could have an effect on donor retention data. But I don't know, maybe there's a new study coming in that. Maybe a new study came in there.

Steven Shattuck:

I think you're onto something, because that's the prevailing theory, at least, right? We don't have a lot of data. I talked about this before, but I didn't finish my thought and just realize the first time donors, the retention rate there is now below 20%. So Oh, my God. Yeah. And it's been falling it was 25%, five years ago and falls about one or two percentage points every single year. Now, I will put that right up against the rise of things like what you're talking about peer to peer, Facebook fundraising, which I agree, I don't have a bone to pick with those channels, I think they can be really useful. But I do think that they're contributing to that low retention rate. But it's okay. A lot of times what I tell people is because we'll get messages, people are upset, they don't get the donor information, right. Or the retention rates from a peer to peer campaign are poor. And I say, It's okay. And I'm the retention guy, right. So we're recording this. So it's like, there are some donors that you're not going to retain. And that is okay. When someone donates to their room at college roommates, 5k. They aren't supporting your nonprofit, they're supporting their college roommate, you know, they're they're drinking buddy on the weekends that at Ball State where I went right or whatever, that is free money. All of the angst and all of that consternation over not getting the donors contact information. When I tell people is ball up all that energy, turn it into gratitude for the fundraiser, who raised that 500 bucks or 200 bucks on their birthday or on Giving Tuesday for you. You want to make sure that they get soft credited if that's what makes sense in your database or just properly appreciated for raising that money because their college roommate think going to give again, right but You want that fundraiser, the person that is the raving fan of your nonprofit to go out and raise money for you again on their next birthday on the next Giving Tuesday, or when you're having a day of giving or capital campaign or whatever, fundraiser retention is now a significant thing to be thinking about as channels like peer to peer and social media powering, you know, some of those donations becomes more and more prevalent. So I think that we will probably continue to see that first time rates slip and slip as more people because don't forget more people are donating things to these channels. So that is, you know, a good thing for the sector. And if we have to, perhaps stomach lower than average donor retention rates, you know, that may be a fair trade off. Although, you know, we've had some customers that have done some very creative things to get those people to give again, for example, you know, have the Thank You come from the fundraiser, know, hey, Julia, thanks so much for supporting my my 5k. for that. Exactly. That was the model, right. The problem is when it's the nonprofit swoops in is like, hey, thanks so much for donating. It's like, what Who are you I donated to you, but they need to be reminded, thanks so much for supporting my my fundraiser. This is the nonprofit that I chose to raise money for, you may not have realized that, but I really believe in them. This is a cause close to my heart. And I would appreciate it if you considered supporting them again in the future. Without that bridge, right? It's really hard,

Julia Campbell:

because we trust our peers. We don't trust institutions. So when we say Josh is our friend, Josh Hirsch, he does social media director for Susan G. Komen. So he's actually a seasoned fundraiser, but he did a personal fundraiser for his birthday. And everyone that donated on Facebook got a little personalized message. And it was really nice. I had never seen that before, it kind of blew my mind. And I thought the potential here is so great, because I did get a thank you from komen as well. But getting that thank you from the person that I donated on behalf of was so much more impactful. And I love what you said about take that ball of angst and refocus it, how about refocusing it on maybe your monthly donors, or those I love this, I say it all the time, the hidden gems, I remember you talking about the hidden gems in your database, trying to call out who are some interesting people that you might want to call that you might want to make that deeper connection with. But what are some ways that you think fundraisers can use these tools and use this technology to keep more of the donors that they have to build these connections? Will over

Steven Shattuck:

and over again, the research says that donors want to be thanked, and they want to know the impact their gift makes. Now, there's a lot of smart people talking about going overboard. And you absolutely can, you know, you'll want to get into this area of donor worship, or you know, ceding too much control to donors. But I think that you can say thank you, and report on impact in an equitable way. And so when you are, you know, taking demos, or considering software tools, the question that I recommend people ask is, is it going to help me do that? Is it going to help me thank donors, you know, in a personal way, for those hidden gem things, like you mentioned, that they do, because the people that give to you are very diverse, and they give for different reasons and in different ways? And then is it going to help me, you know, tell that story. That's why I love some of these products that that let you send thank you videos, and, you know, let you make, like on demand, annual reports that are really beautiful and rich and tell great stories. That's the that's the technology that that I get really jazzed about. And also, you know, things that make online giving really seamless for people. Because that is such a growing channel. You know, it's still small, but it's growing for sure. And, dang, I've been on some websites where it's just like, I cannot donate, I don't even I don't even know where to put the thing. Like, it's not taking my information, like I can't, where am I? You know, so that to me is like the barrier there the bar, right? If you set it there, you really can't go wrong. But it's it's the things that we're gonna be like, we're gonna, we're gonna take the fundraising activities out of your hands, and we'll do it for you. So you can do other things. It's like, well, what are fundraisers going to do if they're not doing those those things? Right. So donors are kind of simple. They want to be thanked and they want to know what what impact they're making, because that was their hard earned dollars that they gave, and could have done something else with them. You know, they're also passionate. They want to offer all the reasons we've said before, they want to have some impact on the world and feel like they're making a difference through the work of the nonprofit and nonprofits deserve a bulk of that credit. I don't want to cede, you know, that control all to the donors. But if I'm donating to get a story about Dang, this is a kid that went through our program. And now he's the first kid in his family to go to college. And it's all thanks to you know, donors, like you support our work to make that happen. That I think is something that you can do, and the donors will be receptive to.

Julia Campbell:

I absolutely love that. I love that so much. I think that there's just so much potential to use these tools for good to use these tools to improve the world to spread the mission and to really showcase impact. And I, I get frustrated when, you know, I know that development officers and marketing officers are stretched to the brink. And they are the million things on their plate. You know, you've been there, I've been there. And we understand that. But it just seems to me like thanking a donor, in some simple way is just the most basic bait, it's just polite. First of all, it's just the polite thing to do. It's the right thing to do. It's like, I don't know how you were raised. But I was raised as a thank you. But it's not necessarily deferring control is just saying, I really appreciate that you took the time out to think of us. And here are some of the awesome things that we're doing. And we're so make it more like a partnership and you know, joining a movement, investing in something investing in a better future. So I love that. What do you think, are the trends that are are happening in this next year? Like as of this recording? Where's fundraising? Going? I know, that's a huge question. But what are some of the things you're seeing one of

Steven Shattuck:

the really good things to come out of a pandemic, and I really want to catch that statement, because it was it's, it still is very terrible for a lot of people, but accessibility, you know, this virtual events and hybrid events, I think is has been really, really good for the sector. And I feel like it's gonna be hard to unring that bell, right? When you've made those experiences and those stories so accessible to people who maybe couldn't join you in person, even pre pandemic, I think that's been a really, really good thing. And I see that continuing, honestly, you know, the the nonprofit sector is so full of people that have just awesome hearts, and really care about their fellow human beings. And, and I think that we'll continue to make those things accessible to people. And there's just been so much creativity, you know, necessity is the Mater is the mother of invention, even when it's, you know, a terrible pandemic that generates those things. And I really think it shook some people out of, you know, we've always done it that way. Or we've we've always done that Gala, you know, for 40 years, and everybody dreads it every single year, every single time that it comes up that that month, but by golly, we're going to do it because we

Julia Campbell:

know that they made three times more just by sending a mailing or an email.

Steven Shattuck:

Exactly, or by opening up to live streaming or whatever. So I think that a lot of people kind of got the chance to step back, reevaluate, challenge, you know, existing norms. And the way we've always done things. And I think that that innovation, will will really carry through I don't know if it's exactly a trend, like you said, maybe it is but just, it really shook things up. And I think that we'll see a lot of a lot of creativity, and people are so willing to share what's one thing I love, and I try to platform that as much as possible, you know, cool things that they've tried, even if it failed, you know, it's still always good to learn from those lessons. That's what I'm really excited to see come out of, you know, over the next maybe a year or three years, or all those neat new things that people are willing to try that maybe you know, 2018 2019 would have been too afraid to do so.

Julia Campbell:

Wonderful. Well, on that note, where can people learn more about you learn more about Bloomerang? Where can they watch these fabulous webinars that you do every month?

Steven Shattuck:

Yeah. bloomerang.com Every week, we got to have you on Julio. It's been too long we got

Julia Campbell:

I think I think I was on pre pandemic talking about oh, man, the future of your nonprofit future proof your social media.

Steven Shattuck:

Well, we will remedy that because we need people like you share that advice. But yeah, every Thursday at Twitter is a good one for me. There might be some Red Sox tweets in there that are a little little sadder but I'll also put out some, some good research because all this stuff that we're involved in, you know, I'll try to shout from the rooftops as soon as it comes out. LinkedIn is good, too. But yeah, pretty easy to find in general.

Julia Campbell:

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here. I know you're very busy parents busy volunteer, because he researcher writer, and maybe if you'll share some of that poetry, we can put it up and

Steven Shattuck:

oh, I'd have to dig out the archive. It could be could be embarrassing, but the banana picture will be enough.

Julia Campbell:

Yes, the banana picture. Okay. So yes, go to nonprofit nation podcast.com. And you can see the photo of Steven and a banana costume, which was so funny. All right. Well, thanks so much for being here today. Appreciate

Steven Shattuck:

it. Anytime. Thanks for doing this

Julia Campbell:

well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. Keep changing the world your nonprofit unicorn