Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

How to Build & Market a Legacy Program with Ligia Peña

July 13, 2022 Julia Campbell Season 1 Episode 45
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
How to Build & Market a Legacy Program with Ligia Peña
Show Notes Transcript

This episode is sponsored by my wonderful friends at Qgiv! I'll be holding a free webinar with them on July 21 - to go https://www.bit.ly/qgivandjulia and register for free! See you there!

Want to know the secrets of getting legacies right in order to secure more gifts? In this episode, I talk with Ligia Peña, CFRE, an internationally-recognized expert in gifts in wills/legacies. We cover all the nuts and bolts of legacy programs for nonprofits, how to build and market these programs, and how to do all of it even at the smallest nonprofit. 

Ligia  is President of Globetrotting Fundraiser where she specializes in helping nonprofits develop strategic, data-driven gifts in wills programs. Prior to consulting, Ligia was the Global Legacy Manager at Greenpeace International where she oversaw the organization’s global legacy strategy in 14 countries. She is also a Ph.D. candidate at the University of Kent where she’s researching national legacy marketing campaigns as a tool to change society’s behavior towards gifts in wills.

As an AFP Master Trainer, Ligia has trained countless fundraisers around the globe. She's a sought-after and seasoned international presenter who enjoys sharing her knowledge and empowering nonprofit professionals to think about gifts in wills differently by daring to be creative and innovative. 

Connect with Ligia:

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online.

Connect with Julia on other platforms:
Instagram: www.instagram.com/juliacampbell77
Twitter: www.twitter.com/juliacsocial
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/juliacampbell
Blog: www.jcsocialmarketing.com/blog

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass, ​3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Julia Campbell:

Hi there, I want to invite you to a super special free live training that I am giving with my friends at Q give on Thursday, July 21. All about creating a future proof nonprofit social media strategy. You can register right now for free at www dot bit bi T dot L y forward slash que give and Giulia once again www.bit.li. Forward slash que give Qg I V. And Julia, you don't want to miss this free webinar. You can also go to the show notes of this episode and click the link to register. You're going to learn all about how to navigate upcoming digital changes, the four pillars of social media management, actionable ways to engage your community, and more. See you on July 21. Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello, everyone, welcome back to nonprofit nation. thrilled to have you here listening. today. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And today we are going to be talking to Lucia Pena, who is an internationally recognized expert in gifts in wills and legacies. We're going to talk about what is the legacy program? What are some things small nonprofits can consider how can we mark our legacy program and sort of all the things around legacies. So Leisha is a president of globe trotting fundraiser. And that's where she is online, where she specializes in helping nonprofits develop strategic data driven gifts in wills, and programs or wills programs, which we're going to learn more about because clearly I need to learn about this, and I need to learn the terms. But prior to consulting, she was the global legacy manager at Greenpeace International, where she oversaw the organization's global legacy strategy in 14 countries. And Lee she has also in her free time, a PhD candidate at the University of Kent, where she's researching national legacy marketing campaigns as a tool to change society's behavior towards gifts in wills. I absolutely love that. I want to talk more about that. So welcome to the podcast. Leisha,

Ligia Peña:

thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm

Julia Campbell:

really excited. We were just talking about how iKON was a lot. And we were not back in like full conference mode. And hopefully, you know, we'll be back in the next few months. I don't know, do you think that we'll ever mentally get back to that same place we were at in 2019.

Ligia Peña:

of attending conferences? I hope so. I mean, I'm definitely heading to my next conference in a few weeks in Paris. So yeah, I'm all for it. I'm on board. Bring it on. Let's go. Yes, Paris.

Julia Campbell:

Alright, well, how did you get into this work? And you know, where's your current focus?

Ligia Peña:

In general in fundraising, I've always been fundraising since I was a small kid. But then, after I finished school, my second BA, I was looking for work. And to make a super long story short, I got a job as a Director of Communications and fundraising at the YMCA here in Montreal, and I didn't look back, I haven't looked back. That was over 20 years ago. And as the years progressed, I've always been very big on professional development. And I just socked every piece of information I could possibly absorb. I'm a sponge when it comes to things and then while I was at the Y, we ended up hiring a DOD and then I moved off and left. And she came from the plan giving world

Julia Campbell:

DoD means Director of Development. Yes, sorry. We love our acronyms. I know that. Yes, yes.

Ligia Peña:

Yes. So she was she came from a children's hospital where she specialized in in planned giving, and that's where I got my first taste of playing, giving loved it and decided to start was learning more about it? Fast forward 20 years later, and here I am specializing in legacies. And I love it.

Julia Campbell:

I know I'm so excited. This is the very first time we've talked about legacies on the podcast. So for people that don't know what that might mean, what does it really mean? Give us a little bit overview and why are they so important?

Ligia Peña:

So, legacies is more of a European terminology. Because in Europe, what they considered legacies are depending on the country, but in general, it's all bequests, gifts in Wales, when you look at Spain and France, that also includes life insurance gifts, it basically replaces the term plan giving that we use here in North America.

Julia Campbell:

I love the term legacy. I think it's very expressive, but keep going.

Ligia Peña:

Absolutely. I agree with you. But I'm moving shifting my mindset about that. And I'll explain why. So in Australia, New Zealand, the US bequest, but here's the thing, being research caucus, I love to look at what research says and then apply it to us as petitioners. And Dr. Russell jeans did a study in the US that demonstrated that donors do not understand what in the world of plan giving means. And what resonated for donors was an actual term. That means what it is you're trying to do, which is gifts and wills. So in his study, he wrecked he strongly recommended that we scrapped plan giving us a term, and we use gifts and wills. Now, of course, we know that gifts and wills is not all of the different donation vehicles that fall under the heading of plank giving, right. So it's a bit limiting. But I think if we were to use legacies, which in his study also demonstrated that was still quite misunderstood. But it was understood a lot more than time giving. That basically, if we were to use legacies to encompass all of the different donation vehicles, financial vehicles that are used within planned giving, we would be more donor centric in that approach than saying plan giving, like, what the heck this plan giving me like you're planning your gifts for Christmas, like what?

Julia Campbell:

Yeah, and people like regular people that are not in the sector don't understand this, these terms that we use, people in

Ligia Peña:

the sector don't understand what it means. I mean, obviously, I've had people in the sector go, What do you mean by client giving? I'm like, oh, boy, and it's not a job on them. I think it's a job in this sector of the terminology that we use, we should all take ownership of that and say, you know, let's drop plan giving once and for all and use a donor centric vocabulary that more people will understand. And that it makes everybody want to rally around it.

Julia Campbell:

So with everything going on in the world right now, is this the time to focus on legacies?

Ligia Peña:

I challenge anyone that says it is not? I'll tell you why. Yes, things are not going well, right now. Economy is in the in the dumpster. And it's not great. But here's the thing, because and we're going to, I guess this conversation will focus specifically about gifts and wills. Because at the end of the day, it is the type of and I use air quotes and saying this, it's like the number one plan gift that donors leave. Okay, like I would go as far as saying maybe 85 to 90% of planned gifts come from requests from guests and wills. So that's why you should be focusing like stuff, you know, wasting time on annuities and trusts and all kinds of stuff that are too complex, especially if you're in a small or medium sized organization. I worked on for the first 15 years of my career in small shops. So I totally know what that challenge is like. But here's the important thing about gifts and wills. Most of them will come in a few years time, depending on how old your donors are in your database. It's possible that some of those gifts could be realized in the short term, like within one or two years. But let's say you're looking at engaging in legacy conversations with your donors, that gift might come into play be realized in a few years. Well, we know that the economy is cyclical. And so yes, right now, it's a crapshoot, or let's be, right. It's not a good situation. But that gift is not going to be realized next week, probably. So the economy has time to re stabilize, and so the assets are going to increase in value. Let's not forget what our gifts and wills look like they're specifically a gift in a will is basically any asset that is liquidated at all the assets are liquid data that death. So it's based on the value of your home of your date of death is the value of your pension of your investments of your, you know, summer home, if you have all of your car, your jewelry, everything, all of your assets are deemed liquidated when you die. And so that's where the proceeds of that donation comes from. So it's really hard to make people comprehend how the economy today does not necessarily impact your gift in the future, because you don't know what the economy will be like in five years from now. That's very

Julia Campbell:

true. And I think that we get so focused on being reactive, and not proactive, and not planning for the long term that we tend to kind of, you know, do ourselves a disservice in that way. So what are some of the first steps like not if a nonprofits very interested, where can we look for these kinds of donors? Like, what are some things to consider when we're trying to start this program?

Ligia Peña:

Well, first and foremost, the biggest obstacle to starting a legacy program is usually management and your board.

Julia Campbell:

Yep, I feel like we should be on tick tock, which is something I hear all the time no offense to tick tock, but

Ligia Peña:

no, it has nothing to do with the tool, it has everything to do with the mindset. If the mindset that's the biggest obstacle, it's not the tools used. And so first and foremost, is getting everybody on board. From day one, otherwise, you're going to be a salmon swimming against the current and you will burn yourself and burn bridges with everybody and never managed to actually put, the next thing is to identify like, this is where, you know, digging into your numbers into your data and your insights is so important. So I know that one of the biggest challenge of small and medium sized organizations and law of large ones to have to say, is having good clean data on your donors. And I'm not talking just about donation, you know, donation history and all of that. That's pretty straightforward. Most organizations have that relatively well done. But I'm talking about information about the donors. So are they married? Do they have a spouse? Do they have a former spouse? Do they have children? You know, what is their level of education do you have the year of birth, you don't have to have their full date of birth, even if you just have, the year they were born all of that demographic information that paints a better picture of what your donors are, that will help you identify which ones are your best prospects. Because what we do know is that the propensity to leave a gift in a will is not based on how much money they have today, like how much cash flow and disposable income they have today, it's based on what their assets are. But more importantly, from a personal perspective, it's how deeply they care about your mission, how committed they are to helping your organization realize its mission. So what you want to be looking at is behavior identifiers that makes a donor stand out. So above, so what I'm talking about is above and beyond the normal, quantitative indicators age to over the age of 55, let's say, and year of birth, those are the quantitative indicators that you want to be looking at. Right? But then the qualitative ones are donors who give on a regular basis consistently, ie your monthly donors. There's nothing more irrational than parting away with your money on a monthly basis to a charity. And yet, that's where you find the nuggets, the golden nuggets in your database.

Julia Campbell:

Yes, Steven Shattuck calls them the hidden gems. Exactly.

Ligia Peña:

Absolutely. Absolutely. He's got it, right. Like those are your donors who are incredibly committed. So you want to start with those donors. If you don't currently have a monthly giving program, consider starting one, it's not that difficult. You just need to add that as a donation option.

Julia Campbell:

is the only way I give it is really the only way.

Ligia Peña:

Yeah, yeah. You know, making an automatic opt in as needed. Do you know what I mean? Like it's an opt in when they make the first gift, right? So that helps you build that that potential pipeline of prospects. So once you've got those things sorted out, then it really comes down to talking about the future. Like the vision of the organization for the future. What do you want to do in five years time? What do you want to be doing in 10 years time? And what will that impact look like? Like you have to sell basically, that image of a better world because you're able to realize your mission.

Julia Campbell:

I love that. Absolutely. And what I think is so interesting, especially with gifts and wills, and legacy donors is that we as fundraisers are trained to use emotions, you know, and Penelope Burke calls it the sad Timmy story or the poor Timmy story. And that's what I teach a lot. Because I focus on digital fundraising, I focus usually on monthly giving small dollar donors, crowdfunding. But you right, and this is an incredible shift, there's a point in the legacy journey where we have to appeal to the donors rational brain. So how do we start to make this shift? How do we do that?

Ligia Peña:

Yeah, so that was based on a lot of my readings and about behavioral science and applying behavioral science in legacy marketing. And we know that tapping into the emotion. So system one, it's that quick, you know, emotive, impulsive kind of part of the brain that makes you do everything that you do on a daily basis, just about right. But then system two is the more complex and strategic thoughtful part of the brain that you tap into when you have to make more serious decisions, more labor decisions, and we resist that that's the minority of the time, right? Because at the end of the day, we're human, we're lazy, right? And this is not a job, it's just a fact. Right? So throughout the journey of engaging with donors, and informing them, and, and, you know, getting them to learn more about gifts and wills, etc, you want to tap on the emotional brain, because that's where they will say yes, and I want to learn more Yes, and I want to find out more about this, you know, you moving them forward for when they, they are at the point where they're like, Okay, this is good. For me, I want to include a gift in my will. So now I have to take an action, I need to go see a solicitor to go and write my will, I need to talk to my family, I need to plan out what my estate planning is, that is a more, you know, intense decision and more serious decision. That's where you need to tap into that rational brain. So this is where in order for them to move forward at that stage, you need to provide them with information that will help them do that action to go see their legal adviser, right. So you won't provide them with a sample request language, you might want to offer them a real writing workbook to help them prepare for that, you may need to nudge them a little bit more and tap into the rational side, how it helps, you know many things, etc, etc. And once that deed is done, once they've gone to their legal adviser, then it's the celebration. So that's where the switch back to the emotional, because doing that action. It's kind of like that getting that joyful, yes, that we often talk about in fundraising, then that's when the celebration happens. And you flip back to the emotional. But the problem is this. The Way plan giving has been marketed for as long as I can remember, is always the rational from day one, because organizations continue to promote playing giving through the lens of these are the financial legal, and, you know, advantages that you'll get by leaving a gift in a will. But it doesn't work. Because that's not where the decision happens.

Julia Campbell:

It's sort of like, yeah, saying, This is tax deductible. Like, that's not why I'm giving?

Ligia Peña:

No, although there's some research that demonstrate that there are more people leaving making donations because it's tax deductible, then we tend to think, but it's not the reason that they will admit, is the human right.

Julia Campbell:

It might just be the nudge that puts them over the edge.

Ligia Peña:

Precisely. Exactly. So, but when it comes to gifts and wealth, it's never about the tax benefit. And that we know, it's because again, because their emotional self is, you know, like their emotion is, is resonates with what you're trying to do. And so that's where it sits. So you need to know, you need to understand that, if you and honestly and it's probably going to take off a few people. But I think the problem of why plan giving and legacies are still promoted through that lens of Oh, it's a tax effective, you know, legally data and all that kind of stuff, is because organizations, especially small and medium sized organizations, continue to look at the examples of like the big institutions that are out there and then go well, you know, if they promote it that way, and they're a big institution, and they're obviously raising a lot of money, then it must work. Well, I mean, you know, just as much as I do, it's not because they're bigger than necessarily doing it well. So, you know, we have to stop copying those big Institute Mission, and just take the time to learn all of these things, which, at the end of the day, it's a lot of common sense. And then just carve your own path as your own organization, be inspired by others, but then carve your own path and challenge yourself to do things a bit differently. Because your donors are not the same donors as those big institutions that you and your you tried to emulate.

Julia Campbell:

So you wrote a four post series that I really liked, that explored the differences between generations, and how legacies should be marketed to them. And I thought it was really interesting, because I feel like when nonprofits think about legacies, they think just about boomers. So how can legacies be marketed to these different generations?

Ligia Peña:

I love writing that. And it was just that it was a first attempt. And obviously, I got so excited by doing the research for that. I'm actually even thinking of like doing a much more in depth study

Julia Campbell:

on your book. I think it could be a book.

Ligia Peña:

Right? Yeah. But then, you know, things are moving so quickly that it would be outdated. So quickly, so we'd have to be something online, I think. I don't know. We'll brainstorm after. Okay.

Julia Campbell:

Yes. Definitely a presentation topic, for sure.

Ligia Peña:

Absolutely. It actually started out as me trying to write a keynote that addresses this. That's where the idea came from. And then I thought, Well, why don't I just do first round research? Do a blog series, see how people respond? Take that feedback, and then build on it anyway. But to answer your question, it came from a place of me being frustrated, because as far as and a lot of my ideas come from my frustration,

Julia Campbell:

pretty much where most of my ideas come from as well.

Ligia Peña:

It's my therapy, basically, were bringing in the sector for over 20 years, for over 20 years, we've been hearing about the wealth transfer and the baby boomer. Well, we're in the midst of it right now. It's happening, and it's gonna continue happening up until they say, about 2040. So we still have quite a bit of time. Do you have time to waste? Heck, no. But if you didn't start last week, well then start today. That's all I'm saying. But don't wait till next week. If it means just sprinkling a little bit of legacy dust all over everything you do, then you're good. That's a good start. Okay. But then that's all? Well, I'm a Gen X er, and I'm the next generation of legacy donors. I've already included, I've made a gift of life insurance, which is all paid up, and they're just waiting for me to die. No, seriously, while they're gonna have to wait a few more years. And I've included organizations in my will. So I've done my request. My Requests are confirmed already. But I'm just getting started. I mean, I just turned 50 A month ago, I'm at that prime age where I, you know, organizations should start have legacy conversations with me. And yet, no one is actually no one hat that one has only one of the many organizations I give to have reached out about a legacy gift. So I'm thinking I'm sitting here going, What in the world are organizations doing? Why aren't they tapping into the next generation? Are they going to wait until we turn 75? To start talking about legacies? Like, that's what's wrong with this, we

Julia Campbell:

the culture, the Western culture where we don't talk about death, or were scared to talk about death and money?

Ligia Peña:

You're not wrong. But I don't think it's that it goes

Julia Campbell:

beyond the

Ligia Peña:

it's way beyond that. It goes to what I was saying before, if management that is not dedicating that keeps running organization, with the leaky leaky bucket mentality. That's what it is, I believe, wholeheartedly that that's what it is, I could be completely wrong. And this is not based on any actual scientific research. But this is based on all these years of working in these organizations, and always being pressured to focus on getting money in this year, and never looking beyond the next fiscal year. And that makes me absolutely crazy. So that's where it came from, of going. So we're focusing on annual income, which is, of course, it's important naturally, it's important, but it can't be done at the detriment of securing your future. You know, most people have pension plans of some sort, you know, in one way or another, whether they're good or not, is not the issue, but just about everybody in general, has some sort of retirement plan? Well, your legacy program is your retirement plan. So why aren't you investing in it? If it's good enough for you on a personal level, why is it not good enough for your organization? Unless, of course, you come and you say, well, we don't expect to be around after 10 years. So why would we? Well, then great. But I've yet to have found an organization that has said that so far. So honestly, I think it comes down to that is that senior management either don't know about legacies, which I know that's a fact, I've spoken to EDS and CEOs that that were just dumbfounded when I mentioned like a C's, or they don't give their fundraisers, this space and the budget and the time to start developing that. So what I've seen is that during the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of organizations that manage to kind of weather the storm of the first year of the pandemic, is because they had legacy income coming in, because they saw a lot of their, you know, mailing programs and so on, and their major gift program, just dip because people were just, you know, not spending right and not wanting to give. And so, it's a great backup plan, which it shouldn't be considered a backup plan. But you know what I mean?

Julia Campbell:

Well, when should we start? Because you're saying, Gen X, and I'm also a Gen X, and I'm a monthly donor to several organizations that I don't think they've ever thought of even contacting me about something like a legacy gift. So that's really interesting. Should we start talking about it, even when even with like Gen Z? And what is the generation even after Gen Z? Like, when is the appropriate time? Or when do you think we should start talking about it?

Ligia Peña:

I think millennials, Gen Z, it's just a little bit too soon. So I wouldn't advise organizations to put start putting money on it. Although it doesn't hurt to put it in your welcome kit.

Julia Campbell:

Yeah, it doesn't hurt to just talk about it. Right. Exactly like

Ligia Peña:

and you know, like that legacy, das sprinkling of legacy, that's Gen my friend Jen love of good works in Ontario. That says that. And I'm not saying here, if you want to start to start writing all kinds of brochures and all that kind of stuff, that's useless. If you don't have the budgets, don't use what you currently use to communicate with your donors to start putting in little messaging, whether it's appears in your annual appeal, whether it's a little box underneath your online donation page that says, please send me more information about your gifts and Wheels program, whether it's adding a you know, a tab in your donate pages that talks about gifts and wills, whatever it is, you don't need to start creating a bunch of brochures, what you need is to just think about, what is it that you want to offer your donors start with request, just that if that's all you do, and then allow donors to start self identifying, if you have a monthly giving program, and you have Gen X's in there, okay, one appeal out of the year, whenever is a good time for you, when you're not sending out your regular special appeals or whatever, do an appeal saying, you know, gifts and wills are really important at organization, ABC, we're able to do this and that and you know, in the future, this is what's going to happen. Would this be something of interest to you? And could we contact you? Well, you can send them a survey, if you go on my website, there's a resources page. And there's a sample survey that people can download and then adapt where their organization send a survey to so that you can lead get your donors to self identify where they are in their thought process of whether, you know, they would like to find out more, or they've already left a gift in their will you don't know you might have donors in your database today that have included you in their will. And you're none the wiser. Why? Because you never asked them.

Julia Campbell:

That's such a fantastic point, just asking, just putting it out there in the universe. And asking people and making them aware that this is an option. I think that's so important. So for my last question, we've touched on it, we've talked about it, what is maybe your top tip your top two tips to convince management to invest in a legacy program or to help you at least start one invest in a legacy program sounds daunting, but at least start?

Ligia Peña:

Yeah, I would say first and foremost, start a conversation of the future of the organization in 15 years from now. Get them to talk about what their vision is for 15 years from now. And then move once that's figured out, move the conversation towards and how are we going to finance that dreams? And then engage in that conversation of Well, you see if we were to start talking about legacies now And we include that across all of our fundraising program, because it's not something that you do on the side. It's something that should be integrated into your Annual Giving Program, your mid level program, your major gifts program across the board, okay, should be integrated into everything, where you're constantly asking for both gifts. And so when you integrate it that way, then it doesn't become yet another thing we need to do. It's just an integral part of your annual giving program. And so there you go, and then through that, then they'll see that it's not yet a big burden to, to develop.

Julia Campbell:

Yeah, no, that's a hugely important point that it's should be baked into everything that you're doing. And that way, it doesn't seem like oh, it's just another thing on my plate, but it should be baked into it should just be part of strategic planning, part of your annual gift program, like you said,

Ligia Peña:

can I just throw in one last thing, started having that conversation, one on one with your director of finance, because usually that's the easier sell, get that one champion, and then have that have that conversation with the rest of the management team.

Julia Campbell:

So where we're going, people, people are going to be very excited about this conversation, and where can they find you and learn more about you, Alicia,

Ligia Peña:

they can find me at triple W globetrotting fundraiser.com. That's my website. And there's our resource page where they can download a bunch of stuff they can access. All the books that I have that I've been reading, I have read or have to read. There's also a few examples of good legacy pages that I've hyperlinked in there. And some suggestions of the blogs to read and things like that. So yeah, that's where they can find me.

Julia Campbell:

Awesome. Where are you off to next?

Ligia Peña:

I'm headed to Paris for the French fundraising Association seminar. So three day conference, and then piggybacking a little vacation in nice and then in this sept end of August, beginning of September, I'm going to Wellington for New Zealand for the fins conference, the New Zealand conference. I haven't been to Wellington. I've been to Auckland. And so I'm looking at piggybacking a few extra things in the area in the in there, that region when I'm there,

Julia Campbell:

I encourage everyone to follow you globe trotting fundraiser. You certainly are a globe trotting fundraiser. Thanks so much, Luigi. Yeah, this is really fun.

Ligia Peña:

It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Julia Campbell:

Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn