How to Use Grant Writing as A Tool for Change with Catherine Ashton

The words we use matter. The stories we tell have an impact. Yet, our grants are often full of old, recycled language and buzzword descriptors that are more than just boring — they’re harmful. Grant writers play a critical role in branding the organization and crafting the ways in which it is presented to funders, and thus they are critical in integrating social justice into fundraising programs - and the overall culture and work of their organization.

This podcast episode explores how grant writers at all stages of their career can ground their grant writing practices in race, equity, and social justice. Catherine Ashton discusses how the ways in which we talk, teach, and practice nonprofit work can uphold harmful systems of oppression - or we can use our writing to further anti-racist, community-centric principles.

Catherine Ashton (she/her) is on a mission to change the way nonprofits raise money. As the founder of Giant Squid Group LLC, Catherine works with nonprofits to land donors, win grants, and fund their works.  She is a sought-after coach, speaker, and strategist locally and nationally, and specializes in helping organizations marry best practices and mission-aligned innovation to drive systems-level change.

Connect with Catherine

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/giantsquidgroup/
• Facebook:   https://www.facebook.com/GiantSquidGroup
• Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/giantsquidgroup/ 

To know more about Catherine's advocacies, visit these websites:

• 7 Ways to Tell Stories Ethically from CCF
• Ethical Storytelling 
• D.C. Style Guide for Inclusive Language
• Racial Equity Resource Guide 

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass, ​3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

Julia Campbell: 0:00

Does any of this sound familiar? Are you struggling with getting people to convert from social media fans and followers to actual donors? Can you get your email list to donate at the rate that you want? And do you find that you want a step by step guide to actually getting people to take the action that you need using your website, email and social media channels? Well, then you're in luck, I created the digital fundraising formula to walk you step by step through this process, and to leave you feeling calm, refreshed, and motivated to raise more money online. So just go to www dot digital fundraising formula.com. That's digital fundraising. formula.com. Enroll now and don't miss it. Class starts September 12. Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone, welcome back to another episode of nonprofit nation. thrilled to have you here today thrilled to be on your walk or while you're doing laundry or while you're driving the kids around whatever you're doing. So happy to have you listening in today. My guest is Catherine Ashton. And she's on a mission to change the way nonprofits raise money, which I love because I'm on a mission to change the way nonprofits use social media. So we're both on a mission to change the status quo. And as the founder of giant squid Group, LLC, Catherine works with nonprofits to landowners win grants and fund their works. She's a sought after coach, speaker and strategist locally and nationally, and specializes in helping organizations marry best practices, and mission aligned innovation to drive systems level change. Catherine is also dedicated to promoting inclusivity and equity in the nonprofit sector, and has been a raging feminist from a young age I need to put that in my bio, because it's incredible. And I think it's so evocative and I love it. In her outside of work time, she's volunteering with the Austin diaper bank or chasing her energetic daughter, Rosalind down the nearest hiking trail, and also your fur babies. And all the fur babies, two dogs, a horse and a cat. And I bet the cat would go on the trails if we let her. So really, when you said it was an energetic morning, it really was.

Catherine Ashton: 3:20

I think that the nonprofit sector breeds energetic people, and you throw a little, little animal rescue in there. And there's truly never a dull moment other than someone's always on the wrong side of the door, which we could probably make sort of some analogy about nonprofit fundraising. But in my house, there's always a dog or a cat on the wrong side of a door.

Julia Campbell: 3:38

That's so funny. I'm sure I'm sure there's a blog posted there somewhere. So tell me how you got into this work. Tell me about giant squid group, and especially how it got the name. Absolutely. Well,

Catherine Ashton: 3:49

thank you so much for having me here. Excited to chat with you all today. So I think like many folks fell into fundraising, you know, right out of college. That's

Julia Campbell: 3:59

a that is a common theme on this podcast.

Catherine Ashton: 4:01

I want to say I came about it from a young age I in kindergarten would force people to have mock weddings and a stage these elaborate you know, three year olds, I was I was an event planner from day one. And after college, landed that first job, I fell in love with development, you know, the event planning, the writing, the people, all of it, I love getting to work in Excel and then go out and talk to donors, and really, really fell in love with it. And after about 10 years doing that set out to see if I could provide really high quality counsel to small and startup and grassroots nonprofits in a way that was accessible to them, both financially and capacity wise. And that happened right when I had my daughter, Rosalind. And so it really kind of brought these two concurrent passions of mine nonprofit fundraising and supporting women, particularly mothers into one umbrella. So start a giant squid group. And I always say I wish I had some really sexy salient answer or like giant you know, it's the It's unearthing the murky depths of fundraising. But really, it was me and my best friend, my husband at a dive bar in Chicago when we were shooting the shit and somehow came up with that name. It stuck. And so when I went to incorporate and make it official, I chose giant squid group. And it's always felt really right. But I do think is the company has grown from, you know, just myself to now 10 People across the United States. Yeah, we've got this wonderful team of women. We are different. I always joke if you don't want a group of tattooed moms swearing at you, you are not in the right group.

Julia Campbell: 5:34

Okay, so that's really funny. And this is total non sequitur. But I have a friend, her name is Beth Blaney. And she runs an accounting firm, and she's tattooed and swears. And she's, that's her whole accounting, like branding. It's like if you don't want real talk, and if you don't want a bunch of people with tattoos and piercings, helping you with your finances, then this is not for you. I love it. And we could probably do a whole different podcast about professionalism. And you know what that means to the workforce. But I digress. So, I, as I put in our document, like I started out as a grant writer for hire. So when I started my business, so I was in the development world did fundraising marketing for years, then I hung up my shingle as a grant writer for hire, which was the first iteration of my business. And I know you have strong feelings about this, and I kind of want to kick off our conversation about grant writing with this thought, you know, people would often ask me to work on commission. Why is this a terrible practice? And I did say no.

Catherine Ashton: 6:40

Is it because you want my blood pressure to skyrocket first thing in the morning talking about this? It's such a great question. And I think it's so salient to the sector as a whole and not just grant writing. I actually came into this work, and I didn't want to write grants. And here we are, you know, and we have 30, some grant writing clients nationally. But why don't we write grants on commission is such an excellent, important question. And there are so many nuanced answers. The first is that the Association of Fundraising Professionals, which for most of us is sort of our only body to go to for resources for thought leadership for ethics guidelines, is very clear that fundraising on commission is unethical. And grant writing is fundraising. Right. It's a different form of fundraising. But it's it is still definitely fundraising, and they have some wonderful, wonderful rationale behind it. So it's, it's unethical, we don't do it. And if you are a fundraiser who is immersed in AFP in any way, then you should be well versed in the reasons why we don't fundraise on permission. The grant Professionals Association, I believe, says the same thing. And as this question kept coming up, like you people would ask all the time, I also learned that it is against GAAP generally accepted accounting policies, which I am not an accountant. And so that was what I was told I would love someone, you know, maybe an accountant will elucidate that for us

Julia Campbell: 8:05

my friend Beth can talk about it

Catherine Ashton: 8:08

tell us why it's a bad idea. So it goes against GAAP, it goes against AFP. Any other acronyms we can throw in there. And then of course, often logistically, it's going to go against the funders expectations, right. So to get into the nitty gritty, if you're submitting a grant budget for$100,000 grant, and you're saying you're going to pay your grant writer 10%. Are you really going to pay them $10,000 to land a grant. And if you put that in your grant budget, that funder is very, very likely going to send out so as an organization, then are you not going to pay your grant writer? Or are you going to be in violation of your grant contract, which is essentially fraud, right? So it's a really messy situation all over the place your account, it's not gonna let you do it. Your treasurer is not going to let you do it. And then of course, there's also an ethical question, right? Grant Writing is work. It is skilled labor. It is very, very niche. It takes time and it takes energy and why would you not pay someone for the hours and hours of expertise and project management and writing that they do? Because whether or not you win a grant, as a nonprofit, has so little to do with the grant writer, and so much to do with the maturity of your organization, the maturity of your programs, whether you fit in the funders priorities and like what color the funders wearing that day is right? At the end of the day, it's a crap shot, right? So it really needs to be a relationship between a grant writer whether they are external, like a consultant or a vendor, or internal to make sure that they are positioning your organization well with funders and helping build those relationships. So obviously, I could go on about this all day. It is definitely a passion point. But I think as a sector, we can come into it with a scarcity mindset. And I get it right you're starting out your boots. Adding everything, you've got this passion, and all of a sudden you go, Oh, fuck, I have to fundraise. And hopefully I can swear we've already covered that.

Julia Campbell: 10:06

That's okay, we can put we can put a little explicit notice in the podcast, it's totally fine

Catherine Ashton: 10:12

explicit grant writing. I have to fundraise. Now how the heck do I do that? So of course, it makes sense that you're you might not be able to pay 1000s of dollars for quality grant writing. But rather than working on commission, it's a sign to me that you just might not be ready to be pursuing high level grants.

Julia Campbell: 10:31

Absolutely. I completely agree with that. I also think it just speaks to the nature of how we are so focused, really not on the process, but only on the results. And if you have a fantastic grant writer that can create this wonderful template for you, and tell fantastic stories, and craft this narrative that you can then use to go to other grant funders. But it takes hours and hours and hours of work, as we know to submit grants and write grants and research grants, like you said, if it's going to be a good fit, just because someone has money, like just don't submit a grant to MacKenzie Scott, you know, because, or Oprah or Bill Gates or like any number of the people. But the topic today that I'm really interested in, and this is how I this is how I found you is I'm so interested in your take on using grant writing as a tool for change. And you write you know, our grants are often full of old recycled language and buzzword description descriptors that are more than just boring. They're harmful. grant writers play a critical role in branding the organization and crafting the ways in which it is presented to funders. And you have a workshop called decolonizing, your grant language and I want to hear more about that how it came to be. And how are people perceiving that?

Catherine Ashton: 11:57

Absolutely. So also my favorite topic to talk about in terms of grants, and I'm really excited to dig into it. So we're going to get our raging feminist hats on and go even a little deeper to raging anti racists, dismantling the patriarchy changing the world, right? Because we could do that because we work in the nonprofit sector and we could do freakin anything. So giant squid group works through and intersectional feminists and anti racist lens. That means that everything we do is really steeped in trying to dismantle our own internalized racism and, you know, be an anti racist firm, which for most of us is a process. You know, I am a white woman from a privileged background. And so this is certainly an iterative learning process for me. And I have been absolutely fortunate enough to be very steeped in the community centric fundraising movement, which is a national movement. I'm not sure if it's international, I should know that but a national movement in the United States. I imagine it is. And I know that there's a ton of great work happening in England around some questions as well. So certainly not unique to the United States. But really thinking about how we can turn the nonprofit sector on its head a little bit when it comes to these questions of equity and access to funding. And as I've been falling in love with community centric fundraising and learning so much, I've also been watching the Gilded Age, and I bring that up. Have you watched the Gilded Age yet on HBO?

Julia Campbell: 13:27

No, oh, my gosh, I need to put it on my list.

Catherine Ashton: 13:30

So I've, I've been watching the Gilded Age, which for anyone who hasn't had a chance to watch it yet is the new Julian Fellowes show that's basically Downton Abbey in the United States. And one of the plot lines, and I promise this, this ties into fundraising is Clara Barton founding the American Red Cross, and how it truly was a tool for rich women to have power. And so even if you're not a huge fan of historical dramas, even if you maybe don't have HBO, I highly encourage anyone listening to this to go watch the episode of Clara Barton, watching the American Red Cross, and seeing how the money behind it and the intentionality behind it in terms of who was funding how they were funding really was a tool, right. And it was a tool of essentially the robber barons. So I've had that running in the back of my head all quarter as we've been doing this, these workshops, which we have been doing for a while, but I loved that, that repositioning that so much of American philanthropy has come out of basically money being a tool for rich people and philanthropy being a tool for rich people. And, and at the same time, we know the incredible power of collective grassroots fundraising, right? We've seen how Kickstarter and GoFundMe, and all of these platforms really, really mobilize people and that $5 here and $5, there can make a huge difference. But you have to have a good story. You have to have a good story. You have to know what you're doing doesn't happen in a silo, but there's a lot of power.

Julia Campbell: 14:56

Don't you feel like marginalized groups tend to raise less money Be on GoFundMe and Kickstarter? Because they're not maybe a sexier cause? I don't know.

Catherine Ashton: 15:05

Probably there's our third podcast topic of the day. Okay, keep going, right? Yes. But we do know that marginalized groups have less access to capital in general. Right. So anyway, all of that led me to really think about how this works in grant writing. Because grant writing is a world in which I live daily. And even as I was working within community centric fundraising and doing my own anti racist work, grant writing still felt like this thing that was sitting off in the corner very uncomfortably, because I could come off an incredible conversation with another fundraiser or another advocate or another raging feminist, and then go write a grant that made me want to cringe because of how we were talking about people. Because so much of grant writing how I was taught it over the last, you know, almost 20 years was kind of pandering to the Foundation's saying how great they are all of these things, really playing up the poverty porn of you know, the poor black kids in Chicago, public schools don't have anything and we need to support them. And my team actually was the one that really came up for this idea of using your grants as a tool of change. And how could we use this incredible platform that we have as grant writers to try to change the narrative. And so what that has has really meant for us when we talk about is that grant writing can feel like it's happening in a silo, right? And if anyone listening is in houseplant, right, or if it does, we sit in our corner, we meet our deadlines, we get information from programs teams are constantly submitting things one minute before they're due. And it can feel like when am I going to have time to change the system when I'm just trying to meet my deadlines. But I think that grant writers have a huge amount of power that we might not give ourselves credit for. Because we get to take everything an organization is doing and synthesize it, and identify, you know, articulate goals and objectives and make sure that what the organization is doing is positioned well. And so even if you feel like you're just sitting at your little desk, and you have a teeny little sphere of influence, and I'll never forget having a you know, an ED who would move every comma, right, I still did have a sphere of influence, right?

Julia Campbell: 17:22

Absolutely. They're not going to rewrite the whole grant, they're just going to nitpick it a little bit.

Catherine Ashton: 17:28

But I think that we can push the bar forward a little bit. And so the two areas where I come to with sort of this, using your grants as a tool of change are incorporating conscientious communication into your grants, it's starting to think about the language that you're using. And the second is ethical storytelling. And I have been so fortunate to learn this from brilliant people, not only in the nonprofit sector, but in the communication sector and storytelling sector, you know, just across across the world, I think there's a lot of thought going into this. And so one of the first tools I discovered was the social justice phrase Guide, which is a collaboration of the Advancement Project and the opportunity agenda, and I'll show notes, and it's this incredible guideline for conscientious communication. And it takes it from that Oh, the poor black people and the poor little brown kids at risk kids. Yes, at risk, you got me. And instead talking about let's talk about people respectfully, and accurately, let's talk about their identities. Let's talk about their situations. Let's outdate let's retire outdated and problematic phrases and really reinforce the idea of prosperity and community over this sort of white savior ism that we're very good at writing. So what that looks like I think for most of us is starting to think about more intentionally. Are you using people first language or identity first language and the the guidelines for conscientious communication have a really wonderful breakdown. So if anyone's like people identity, what? Take a look. But for instance, there's some easy once no one is homeless, right? It's so easy to say oh, the homeless, I'm going to help the homeless. No one is homeless. They are experiencing homelessness.

Julia Campbell: 19:20

I've noticed that lately. I've seen that everywhere. And it's really powerful.

Catherine Ashton: 19:25

Right living unsheltered and even homeless, right, someone who is experiencing homelessness, there's a whole spectrum, right, which I didn't know growing up until I was running with a group called back on my feet.

Julia Campbell: 19:39

I love back on my feet. I know that group talk about amazing storytelling.

Catherine Ashton: 19:43

Yes. And stuff like oh, right, you you could be living on sheltered or you could be living with your grandmother. And you might be considered homeless, but there's a big difference, right? So

Julia Campbell: 19:55

exactly. When you come back from college and you live with your parents, are you There's a whole range. That's what I really love about this language. So yeah, keep going. I love this.

Catherine Ashton: 20:05

Yeah, we could talk about it all day. So we focus on the person, right, rather than the condition coded vague terms like at risk. You said that I love that. What are you at risk of?

Julia Campbell: 20:17

I can't even I work with Boston public schools a lot. And I work with the Boston Foundation, a lot of afterschool programs. And that is just the term they use. What are you at risk of what like what specifically is happening? Exactly.

Catherine Ashton: 20:33

And I think, again, it's an opera, what, what it does, and there's so many terms where you can start to use people first language rather than identity first language. When we use identity first language. And we use these coded vague terms like at risk, we are asking readers and ourselves to make a cognitive assumption from what we're talking about to the person we're talking about. So at risk, I love that you said you work with Boston Public Schools, I work for Chicago public schools, that same thing. And so I know because of how I was raised, when I read the word at risk youth in Chicago, it paints a very clear picture in my head of a young black man in a disenfranchised neighborhood. And that probably isn't true, if you are sitting at risk of something else. And it also is such a dishonest representation to paint all people quote at risk because we are making that cognitive leap and we're asking our funders to make that cognitive leap and I think that very harmfully reinforces our stereotypes, and that white savior ism.

Julia Campbell: 21:35

So how can we and how do you work with your clients to tell these truthful, empowering stories that really elevate our communities, instead of perpetuating stereotypes and tokenism? And we know

Catherine Ashton: 21:49

the problem? One thing before we get into that is one thing I have learned and that has been pushback I received is when people self identify however you go use that. So for instance, it's not people with autism. You know, a lot of people with neurodiverse people self identify as autistic, right? So it would be equally as harmful to say, well, actually, you're a person living with autism, right? So it does feel like a constant learning of, of how to refer to people accurately and respectfully. But I think the number one thing we can do, to educate ourselves and then to educate our clients or to write better grants or to work more effectively within communities just shut up and listen, because I don't think anyone's going to come and say, Hi, my name is Katherine, I am an actress woman. No one is going to say that minority, right, yeah, I am an at risk minority from a disenfranchised neighborhood. But someone might come in and say hi, I'm, you know, I live with a mental illness, or I'm autistic, right? So we want to listen to people. And then as we're writing, I think it's a really wonderful opportunity for writers to go back and audit your language to see are you empowering your constituents? Or are you painting them as victims by putting that identity first language by really painting these very vague platitudes of disenfranchised neighborhoods and, you know, systems. So getting very active in how you talk, getting very specific in how you talk, and instead of saying, an at risk youth in Chicago Public Schools, saying, a young black man who is you know, x times as likely to be incarcerated because of whatever, like, paint the picture, right, be specific?

Julia Campbell: 23:34

Do you feel like we shy away from that? Because we feel like saying a young black man is somehow taboo or somehow offensive? I really do feel like if I wrote that in a grant proposal, someone would say, oh, no, we can't say that. So I think we need to really explore. Why can't we say that? And what are we thinking when we say that?

Catherine Ashton: 24:01

I think you're right. And I think that, again, our sector, particularly in institutional funding, is so good at not having real conversations. And again, making those cognitive leaps from at risk youth means this or disenfranchised?

Julia Campbell: 24:19

No, we're not going to really talk about what we're talking about. Right? Right.

Catherine Ashton: 24:23

And so that's where you have to be really honest with yourself about how far you can push it, you know, how far what is your sphere of influence. And if you have a board chair, or an IDI or a funder, that is going to lose their shit, then don't write don't get fired because of this podcast, right? Don't write it.

Julia Campbell: 24:40

Or maybe write it and then have a conversation around it. Don't submit it without getting Don't be

Catherine Ashton: 24:45

like Catherine said and fired. Don't do that. But think about maybe bring the guideline for conscientious communication to the table. Maybe think about, hey, I think that we could be clear in how we talked about this. I think we could use these Statistics instead of the ones we've been using to paint a more descriptive, you know, statement of need, right? So it's a conversation and not to say you're gonna go, you know, guns blazing into your 80s office, but it's definitely a conversation. So that's a big thing. And the other, the other thing that's going to kill this whole conversation is character counts, right? Because I'm telling you, oh, my

Julia Campbell: 25:22

oh my god, I just got posttraumatic stress from character counts on the online app on the online applications.

Catherine Ashton: 25:31

We just submitted a grant yesterday that said, you know, describe your history, vision, mission and work 75 words. Your history. In that case, forget everything I told you. Because if you say, you know, men and women who were formerly incarcerated are now experiencing homelessness, that's like half your word count. So you might just have to put homeless and we're just going to know that next time, we can do a little better.

Julia Campbell: 25:58

That's a very interesting point that you're bringing up because I know Boulay of nonprofit, I've talked a lot about this, about how the funders do think that they are somehow doing us a favor with these character counts. But then we're not having this universal language. We're not having this universal template that we can all work from. And it's hours of molding your particular grant proposal into this person's template and this person's template and this person's template, which the time that that takes and that's what you do, all day in and out every day. So I know you see that. So what would what do we say to funders, if they're listening, what do we say to some some grantmakers if they're in a grantmakers listening?

Catherine Ashton: 26:45

Yes. Well, thank you for listening and being part of this conversation. And I love that you brought that up, because we do do this workshop we started with, you know, grant writers are essentially cat herders, right? We because the number one challenge we have is this funder expectations, deadlines mean, ridiculous deadlines, ridiculous character counts, ridiculous questions, and then the internal politics of your organization. So I get why when you are dealing with all of that, and you don't have any brain cells left to right level of time, you're going to fall back on your old language, totally been there, done that, and probably still do it. So I think for funders, it really is being part of these conversations. And I think there are a lot of funders nationally that are talking about how to make their process more equitable and more accessible to nonprofits. And if you're a funder, wondering how to do that, I would say, you know, look at your local AFP chapter and see who's doing this work. Look at the community centric fundraising chapters movement, the slack group is wide open. And there are funders in there having these conversations, I've seen them and it's fabulous. But I do think all of this takes putting aside a lot of ego on all sides. I know for me, right, I have an English degree, I think I'm a pretty good writer. And it is so hard to challenge assumptions and timelines and client expectations and find our expectations and come to the core of this, which is why it is iterative. And it is ongoing, because we're certainly not going to solve any of this overnight.

Julia Campbell: 28:18

What I love about your particular your company and the things that you teach and things you write about, you talk about bringing in the voices of your community, how do you think we can best do this as grant writers.

Catherine Ashton: 28:32

So in addition to educating ourselves on people verse identity, first language and how groups self identify, and how we can just become stronger writers, you know, stronger writers about social and economic and racial justice, I think we can get specific in our systems and how we talk about and to our people by bringing in some concepts of ethical storytelling, which is another area where I just feel incredibly privileged to have learned from fabulous storytellers and fabulous communicators, and I'll make sure that we have that available in the show notes for y'all. And so I think another area were fundraising in general, grant writing, annual appeals, you name it is very, very harmful is when we just tell stories about people without thinking about why and how we're telling the story. I love using stories and grants, and I am that person where if they say anything else you want us to know about how many characters do I have, okay, like, let's find a story, right? Anytime you give me an extra character count, I'm going to be putting a quote or a story in there because I think the people with whom we work are so much more exciting and important than anything we could say about our organization. Right? They are the magic sauce. But if you are just going to your program manager and this was Catherine 10 years ago, and I still cringe and say I need a story for this grant. Can you get me one and they come back and they say, you know, Susie was a 10th grader at this school and blah, blah, blah. And these very personal, very intense stories. It's incredibly exploitative. And I always ask people, and this was something that I have heard from other speakers and other coaches, and even funders and nonprofits themselves. If you found out someone was using your story, without your consent, how would you feel?

Julia Campbell: 30:27

I think what's so interesting about that is the Donors Choose method that I've been reading a lot about. They do everything in terms of asset framing. And they always train people that when they're raising money and Donors Choose, they say, would the people in your classroom be proud to share this story? Or would they be embarrassed about how you talked about the classroom? How you talked about the school? Because donors chooses teachers raising money for their classroom? Most most of the time? So I love what you said, it's sort of like, would they be proud to share it on their social media channels?

Catherine Ashton: 31:05

And is that the story they would choose to tell? Because I promise they have a story to tell. And so logistically, and again, you know, if we're sitting here going, Okay, what, what can we do, this will be a system change for letter nonprofits. And it's one that I'm still working with my clients ask permission before using stories, which takes time, you have to email them, and they're not going to email you back. And then you have to email them again. And then you have to find time to interview them. It's going to take time, and you're going to feel like but I have this grant to tomorrow, right? So again, a process, you can do it, maybe you can do it next quarter, but ask permission. And as a writer, that is truly my favorite part of writing a grant is when I can interview constituents. And I always use very, very open ended questions, you know, tell me about yourself, tell me about whatever organization right, you know, and the power, I get chills, the power, the excitement, and the intensity of the stories are incredible. And going back to when we talked about, you know, how we might be uncomfortable getting very specific about who we're talking about. People get very, very open when they feel empowered to tell their story.

Julia Campbell: 32:15

And when they feel like the story doesn't define who they are.

Catherine Ashton: 32:19

And it's this incredible part of their journey and an incredible obstacle that they overcame. And they're the starring role of this, you know, when your nonprofit was sort of the, you know, the support Best Supporting Actress and I had a woman that I was interviewing for an organization that works in the mental health space. And I was really, you know, probably assuming I was going to some touchy feely stories about how we sort of had a general crisis and blah, blah, blah, she got on the phone and about 30 seconds and was like, and then my son, and I feel comfortable sharing this because she did my son stabbed a kid in the eye with scissors and got expelled. And I had a complete breakdown, because I had no idea what to do. And I felt like a terrible mom, I never would have assumed that that would be a story that I would share. But that was her story to tell because she needed to tell it.

Julia Campbell: 33:05

She needed to tell it. This has been wonderful. So the last I guess the last question I would ask you, there's so many, I think we need to do 10 more.

Catherine Ashton: 33:14

We could talk about this forever,

Julia Campbell: 33:16

We definitely need to talk just the basics of grant writing at some point. But that's another episode. But what are some of the trends that you see? What are some of the grant, you've got your finger on the pulse of grant writing? What do you see in terms of funders and foundations and is giving up is giving down or what do they want to see

Catherine Ashton: 33:36

two trends that I've seen over the last few years is I think giving isn't necessarily up or down as much as contracted to really focus on renewals. And I think that was a result of the pandemic. And I think, you know, for those of us who were fortunate enough to continue to receive institutional fundraising during 2020 2021, there were a lot of funders just saying, Hey, we're just automatically going to renew your grant. Don't worry about it, just give us an update, which was such a gift. And equally as much. I've seen a lot of funders now saying we're not opening our portfolio to new funders right now. We really want to make sure that we're continuing to invest in our current fundies, which is, again, great if you are a current funding, but it can be hard to find new opportunities right now, because of the continued uncertainty of just the world. And so I've certainly see that as a trend. And the other trends that I've seen, which I think completely echoes our whole conversation is the institutional focus on Dei, which, you know, podcast number 37 can be equally as performative. Right? What's your dei initiatives? How are you incorporating it? And so I think that dei and inclusion and all of that is now the big sort of buzzword topic in the sector, which it might have been, you know, data 10 years ago, right everyone wanted your Data 10 years ago now everyone wants to know what you're doing to be diverse, equitable and inclusive. So those are the trends I see. And I'm sure by the time that we talk again, they will have completely changed.

Julia Campbell: 35:11

Exactly. That's the great thing about the sector. That's the fantastic thing about working in the sector, the only constant is a constant change and deadlines and deadlines and arbitrary character counts, we can always count on that. So where can people find out more about giant squid group about you connect with you?

Catherine Ashton: 35:32

Absolutely. We are on the interwebs across the internet at at giant squid groups, our website is giant squid group.com, social media at giant squid group and I'm on LinkedIn, I would love to connect with folks. And we have some self paced classes if anyone just wants to sort of dabble in some of the things we do. One of the things that we offer is almost all of our offerings or pay what you want. So all of our self paced classes, our membership program, or group coaching programs are pay what you want. So we really try to make it as accessible as possible as part of our commitment to economic justice. So certainly hope that you can download some of our templates are come take one of our classes, or come join our next you know decolonizing your grant session workshop.

Julia Campbell: 36:18

Yes, I will post all of those links in the show notes. Keep doing the amazing work. I encourage everyone to contact Katherine and her crew, and learn more about how to decolonize your grant writing, how to use grant writing for social change and all of the fantastic resources on their website and socials. So Thanks, Katherine, for joining me today.

Catherine Ashton: 36:39

Thank you so much for having me, Julia. It was absolutely a pleasure.

Julia Campbell: 36:49

Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn