Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

How to Activate Your Nonprofit Board with Mickey Desai

September 07, 2022 Julia Campbell Season 1 Episode 50
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
How to Activate Your Nonprofit Board with Mickey Desai
Show Notes Transcript

Does your nonprofit board participate in fundraising? Are they active in ensuring the financial sustainability of your organization, by donating, opening doors, and sharing the great work that you do with their networks? 

If you said no, then you aren’t alone. Ensuring that new and existing board members fully understand their core obligations will help them pave the way for your cause in a sound, legal manner. 

Mickey Desai works with nonprofit boards to simplify board management and amplify their impact in their communities. After years of working with various causes, he has a solid understanding of what capable governance looks like for nonprofits. In this episode, Mickey walks us through the core responsibilities of nonprofit boards, as well as providing advice on how to activate and energize your own board. 


Connect with Mickey:


About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass, ​3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Julia Campbell:

Does any of this sound familiar? Are you struggling with getting people to convert from social media fans and followers to actual donors? Can you get your email list to donate at the rate that you want? And do you find that you want a step by step guide to actually getting people to take the action that you need using your website, email and social media channels? Well, then you're in luck, I created the digital fundraising formula to walk you step by step through this process, and to leave you feeling calm, refreshed, and motivated to raise more money online. So just go to www dot digital fundraising formula.com. That's digital fundraising. formula.com. Enroll now and don't miss it. Class starts September 12. Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to nonprofit nation. thrilled to have you here as usual. And I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And today we're going to be talking all things boards, board development, how to engage your boards, how to get them to understand the scope of their responsibilities. And I have a special guest, Mickey Desai. He's the founder of nonprofit snapshot, LLC, which is a for profit company that provides assessment tools and support to a national audience of consultants who work with nonprofit entities. He's creating a soon to be released app, which we will definitely talk about. He's also a podcaster. He hosts the nonprofit snap cast, and he's a serial entrepreneur. He also has a hobby podcast, the thing about cars. So if you're into cars, definitely check that out. So welcome, Mickey. Thanks for being on the show. Julia, thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this. Yay. Well, how'd you get into this work? And tell me more about being a serial entrepreneur?

Mickey Desai:

Yeah, you know, I like Cheerios a lot. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's a joke. I like Cheerios a lot. I came out of the nonprofit sector in around 2008, when the economy was not doing very well. And that's the time when I first invented the nonprofit snapshot. I started my business in 2010. So I hear you, Oh, yeah. So I launched it all back then. And the snapshot itself has been on and off the shelf, along with the snap cast the podcast, and I'm getting way ahead of myself. But the snap cast was meant to be a podcast to facilitate some of the marketing and some of the discussions around the snap shot starting back in 2008. But the snap cast has taken on a life of its own. And I've gotten this, this nice niche that it's a small niche. But it's definitely an involved niche of listeners that has given me something of a national footprint, which I'm very grateful for. And it's a national bit of exposure that I never thought I would get. And we haven't even started talking about the snapshot yet. The snap cast is just conversations with me and other nonprofit leaders, sometimes other consultants about the work that they do trying to share tips and tricks and best practices for Nonprofit Management. I know you know that story. And I try to keep my episodes kind of short. And it's just amazing the number of people who will call me up to say, Hey, Mickey, I've got something I want to share. Can I be your guest on the show? So it's it's been? Yeah, it's been kind of cool. When I started the snapshot back in 2008, is when I decided that I was going to put my finger in as many different entrepreneurial pies as I could stand at the time, which in hindsight, was maybe something of a mistake, I think, I think it's better to do one at a time instead of you know, several try to do several at once. But I've dabbled in app making and I've dabbled in game development, and I'm a nerd. So I do a lot bunch of different things. So that's in a very quick nutshell how it's gone since 2008. But prior to that I was heavily entrenched in the nonprofit sector. I did a lot of fundraising and development around town here in Atlanta, Georgia. It was two experiences in particular that I thought did not go very well. In fact, I think I was something of a failure coming out of two different development experiences two different leadership experiences. And I was trying to soothe my wounds by writing a white paper about how those Two failures had gone. And that turned into the nonprofit snapshot. So instead of coming up with an essay, I actually fleshed out the essay and turned it into this snapshot, which is a micro assessment of a nonprofits management practices it's designed to met originally, it was designed to let me walk into a nonprofit, interview three people and then generate a report card that said, Okay, let's pick a nonprofit, let's pick this pick a habitat affiliate, this habitat affiliate, you know, small habitat, affiliate may get a B plus. And then we'll explain why. And then why is divided up amongst 10 Different subject matter areas. So I've amplified the entire process. Step two, is to do an alpha test to get some feedback on that. So the alpha test is going to happen any day. Now. I just need to pull the trigger and get my ducks in a row there. And then step three is to scale it. And you know, so that if we were assessing different kinds of nonprofits, we might ask different kinds of questions like an ecumenical after school care program may have different questions asked of them than say, like, a grassroots arts entity or something like that.

Julia Campbell:

Yeah, tell me more about the app, what's it going to be called and who is it for

Mickey Desai:

It's going to be called a snapshot and and the audience for that is hopefully, nationwide body of consultants who just want to license the thing and use it in their consultancy practices across the country. And my goals are actually pretty modest, I would simply like to get 10 users in every major metropolitan area to use it with the intent of keeping the licensing fee pretty small, so that it's accessible. You know, let's, let's see if we can just help shine a light, you know, that good five mile perspective on on management practices. And the snapshot, I should say, is not meant to solve problems, right? This snapshot is meant to simply illuminate where the deficiencies are from a management perspective. And so that way, you know, all I'm doing is putting the stethoscope and consultants toolkit, they can pull it out and use it to figure out where the actual work needs to get done. Again, I'm getting ahead of myself. It's designed to shorten discovery phase for a consultant. And it's designed to help make an organization not waste their time and resources on stuff they don't need. And one example I point out is I did a snapshot for a local mental health entity that thought they needed a marketing consultant. And they did they needed some marketing help, but they needed a lawyer first, they didn't realize that in their case, it was for fairly simple and obvious reasons. It's just no one ever thought that they needed to cover their their HIPAA angle and get all that protected before they started working with a third party.

Julia Campbell:

Wow. So it's eliminating gaps?

Mickey Desai:

Yeah, exactly. Pretty much. And I confess, you know, between you and me and your listeners, there's something of an ulterior motive behind the snapshot, because it's meant to be something of a board education platform. It's not like it can't be that right. It is simply just a micro assessment. But almost everything, the snapshot and measures comes down from board leadership, right? This is the board equipping their staff to do certain things. And so I've interviewed people for the snapshot who are like, Oh, I did not know we need to do that. And yes, there you go. There's your education. Let's let's talk about making a plan. Oh, that's interesting. So I didn't know the board needed to do that. I love that. So that leads us into talking about boards.

Julia Campbell:

So where is your current focus? What are you most passionate about?

Mickey Desai:

Ah, that's a good question. I think that in terms of the work I get to do with nonprofits, it's teaching boards the full scope of their responsibilities, because I meet a lot of, especially amongst the small to medium sized nonprofits, I'm still meeting boards who don't understand what it is that board members do, or at least not have a full understanding of what fiduciary responsibility means. And I love teaching them what that means. So what does that mean? There's two ways that I like to say, what what board members do and the polite way is that if you're a board member, you know, your board has to be your primary philanthropic concern for the year, and therefore you should be a doer, a donor and a door opener for your board. Do you need to be all three? You need to be all three? And if you can't be all three, please help your organization find people who can there's a nicer way to say this, which is bring your time your treasures and your talents and do all three and that's a little little more sugarcoating for folks but I like Doer donor and door opener, I think you should powerfully arrive and and be at the table and do things for your nonprofits. And that's participating in the functions of some committee, whether it's an events function or finance, you know, taking a look at finances and raising a red flag whenever necessary. You know, helping helping do forecasting for your nonprofit. There's any number of things that a board member should be doing and can easily do for their nonprofits. But a lot of folks are uneducated in what their options are and simply fall into this rut of they just show up and vote on minutes and take a look at the agenda for the next month and that's not enough so do that and be a door opener. And I tell folks, that means, you know, open up your Rolodex and figure out how you can be that that evangelical ambassador for your organization and spread the word about what it is that you're working on, so that they can also become partners, even if it's just financial. And that's, you know, build those giving circles is what I like to encourage boards to do. So that every board member has their own little social circle of maybe five to 10 people that get together for a quarterly lunch, and they throw some money in a pot, and that becomes a giving circle for the nonprofit. And there's easy ways to do that sort of thing. And there's more complex ways to do that sort of thing. But I think every board member should absolutely be opening their Rolodex to bring people to the nonprofit, whether it's for skills or just for resources, and then you know, be a donor, like, like we said, Doer donor and door opener, the donor being the last one, that nonprofit is your primary philanthropic concern for that year, and I've met people who are like Mickey, can't I be on more than one board at a time?

Julia Campbell:

It would be time consuming. Yeah, it would be terribly

Mickey Desai:

is for three to get 30% of you. So if you really want to maximize your impact, choose one choose one that you love a lot and make them your primary philanthropic concern for the year as a phrase I keep coming back to that other thing I tell nonprofits, which is sounds kind of crass is we encourage boards to achieve 100% board level giving. So you know, many grants are now saying you can't apply for this grant unless every single member of your board has become a donor. And what that means in terms of giving levels is a whole nother conversation for a different podcast, I think. But I tell nonprofits that if you're a board member, and you're making your annual gift to your board, and if you can write that check without thinking about it, it's not big enough. And people look at me funny when I say that, again, to me, it all goes back to him. But impact and fiduciary responsibility. If that nonprofit is your primary financial concern as it should be, then you should be helping them throw the biggest punch they can. And that means thinking really strongly about maximizing your financial contributions to the organization along with, you know, bringing your time and your talents to the table.

Julia Campbell:

What if there are very large economic disparities in terms of board members? So I've been on boards where there have been former clients on the board, where there were young people on the board. And then there were clearly established business people established, you know, people that have established their businesses, and were able to give more. So should there be a range?

Mickey Desai:

Yeah, you know, I think the nonprofit needs to sit down and figure out their own policies on what board giving limits should be. I'm, I'm personally not a fan of setting those financial requirements. I'm okay with setting targets personally. But I think you're right, I think there needs to be arranged whether or not that range is documented. And so what I've told boards is, if you're able to give five bucks, and that's what you can give, then thoughtfully make that $5 gift. But if it can be a $10 gift, then think about that and make the $10 gift and I you know, same thing, the same dynamic applies for the larger donors. If you can quickly write $1,000 check, that's great. With a little more thought and planning, could it be a $3,000 gift. So that's what I encourage them to do. And so you know, give give to your limit, but put some real thought into what that limit is, is what I tell boards. And then, as we both know, there are other nonprofits that simply set prescribed giving thresholds for board membership. And that's fine. But like you say, I think they should be staggered to the audience. Right? They should definitely be reachable by by everyone who's on your board. And that butts up against a conversation about board diversity, which is also another.

Julia Campbell:

How do we increase the diversity not even just in race, but diversity in background diversity and experience diversity in economics, economic status, diversity in what they do? And I don't have the answer to that. I've got some ideas. But what do you usually recommend to your clients?

Mickey Desai:

There are a lot of really good ideas out there on how to increase diversity. And many nonprofits actually come up with, I think, a roadmap for how do you target various populations for recruitment purposes? I'm working on a couple of blog pieces that might eventually address that. I'm not sure I'm, I'm not sure I'm the DEI expert on the matter here. But I think that nonprofits should absolutely strive to bring people in. I've heard nonprofits actually bring some of their recipients into the table as voting board members or if they can't be board members, at least have an advisory committee of some sort that includes people who are receiving receiving the services of the nonprofit. I'm not Not sure I've answered your question, however,

Julia Campbell:

no, it's a challenging topic, because I think that nonprofit boards are really kind of the last frontier of being disrupted, and changing. And at least what I've seen locally, it still is, okay, who's rich in this community? Who has a lot of money? Not necessarily, who's going to be passionate, who's going to be effective? So how can we sort of change that mindset around just looking for the quote, unquote, rich people, the people that have the resources, and look more to the people that are maybe passionate, or maybe have influence, but it's not as apparent.

Mickey Desai:

It's that mix right as I'm falling over myself here trying to differentiate between a board members ongoing need to find access to resources, along with an ongoing need to find voices at the table to make sure that they're doing the right job, and that they're not neglecting other potential stakeholders in the equation. So everybody has something to bring to the table. And even a recipient still has time, treasures and talents, even if they're not as large as a corporate executives are, right. So I think you simply honored people cook people's contributions when they can, knowing that the diverse mix of voices at your table actually makes for a more powerful nonprofit than one that that is homogenous and makeup.

Julia Campbell:

So how do we get board members on board? Like how do we get them to understand the scope of their responsibilities, depending on maybe our nonprofit and what we need? I mean, smaller nonprofits probably need more hands on maybe people inviting people to buy a table, or maybe actually doing work for the nonprofit. I've definitely worked with small nonprofits that have board members that do actual work. And then how do we get them to understand how their oversight responsibilities work? And I'm sure you hear this all the time, what I'm thinking of is that nonprofit that says to me, Oh, my board doesn't do anything. My board doesn't do anything. What's the answer to that?

Mickey Desai:

One of the best tools I've seen is to hand board members a menu. Oh, I love it, like an ala carte is That's exactly right. And it looks like a restaurant menu. And they get to pick an entree, and they get to pick an appetizer, and they get to pick a dessert. And the entrees are things like I should have, I should have pulled this up before we started this conversation. You know, it's like the appetizers are like, bring a list of 10 people that the organization can call with the attempt to convert them into donors. And the entree is like organize an event as part of a fundraising committee, and maybe chair a silent auction committee. I mean, I'm thinking today, these are sort of old school ideas at this point, because a pandemic, but then the desserts are something like hand write thank you cards to 10 donors at the end of every board meeting or something like that. So that way, the board member has a definitive list of things that they're willing to do, and can put their name on it and literally sign the menu and say, here are the things that I can do. And so who if there's a staff person at their organization who can wrangle all these things, that person can then pick up the phone and say, Hey, Julia, you said that you knew three people in this in this part of the world that can help us achieve our goals, XY and Z. Can we have that conversation now. And that's how I think the work should get done. Prior to me talking about the menu idea, I also thought about what it takes to get a small board to understand the kind of work that they have to do. And part of me thinks that we're neglecting one crucial ingredient about board service. And that is, it should be as fun as possible. working for a nonprofit is is already something of a high burnout proposition. It's an uphill struggle to get the funding to make the world a better place. And to many of us know that story in very painful ways. So, you know, board service should be as socially fulfilling and as fun as it can possibly be. And that's up to the board to figure out how they're going to do that.

Julia Campbell:

I agree. I think we need to flip board meetings on their head. So how do we get get out of the cycle of like you said before, board members are just there to kind of rubber stamp the minutes? What can we do to make our meetings a little more engaging, other than maybe having pizza? You took the words right out of my mouth, or having you at a brewery or whatever. There's lots of breweries here in Massachusetts.

Mickey Desai:

Yeah. One effective tool i There are two things that I can think of. And now that I'm thinking about it, one effective tool is to bring a stakeholder into a board meeting a recipient and let them tell their story at a board meeting. Another thing that I've done with the boards that I've served on is to make sure the mission is printed at the bottom of every agenda in the footer so that you don't forget on what you're working on. So but but I think having that stakeholder voice at the table is pretty invaluable and, you know, take the moment to honor that person's journey and that that person struggle and to have fun with them. You know, don't forget that what you're doing had definitely had As a human component, even if even if you're working on the arts, even if you're working on animal welfare causes, none of that's relevant without the human component.

Julia Campbell:

I sit on the school board here. And so much of the work we do is bureaucratic and perfunctory. And just not rubber stamping, we never rubber stamp anything. But literally like, you know, greenlighting a grant for something or looking through the budget. And my favorite meetings are when we have the students come and present to us certain things that they're doing, or when we see student projects when we actually get to remember Oh, yeah, we are, we are doing a lot more than just the budget and negotiating with the union and running through all of the requirements. And all of the the bureaucratic stuff that we have to do is very important. But I love when the mission comes full circle. And for me, I tried to spend a lot of time I have two kids in the schools. So I'm I touched the schools, and I'm in the schools all the time. But for me, I really tried to keep that mission at the forefront, because I think, as a board member, like school boards is the same, we have a fiduciary responsibility. And we have to remember our mission is 100% on the students. And sometimes it can get kind of convoluted, and sometimes it can get messy. But remembering that I love that printing the mission at the bottom of every agenda, do you think that board members should be receiving or seeking out regular professional development? And what does that look like?

Mickey Desai:

I think the answer is yes. Even though it's hard for board members to find it, there's I'm thinking of a series that they offer here in Atlanta, there's actually a couple of them. One of them is the United Way VIP program, which is a 10 week board training endeavor which takes and it may have changed in scope. But when I did it, it was 10 weeks. And each of the 10 weeks, they picked a subject related to some aspect of board management. And you know, everything from fundraising, to volunteer management to taking a good look and mission and vision and things like that. So those kinds of things are usually pretty accessible in most major cities. The Atlanta women's foundation here in Atlanta has something called women on board, which is also a board training endeavor for women who want to look at board service. Any option like that, I think is a good one. Frankly, Julia, I think maybe you and I should write a book called board duck board service for dummies? 101 or something like that?

Julia Campbell:

Yes. Is there one, we need? One?

Mickey Desai:

We need one? Definitely. I think it would be a pretty straightforward, right.

Julia Campbell:

There are a lot of handbooks out there. But I think they're very dry. And I think they're very, they're just a list of a checklist.

Mickey Desai:

Exactly. They're just checklist. And you can approach the whole thing really forensically if you want to. And I don't think I think that's sort of a mistake. But you know, like we said, put real life into your board members and realize that everyone at the table is someone who's giving their time and therefore that time should be rewarded with pure human connection is it sounds hokey as hell, but I, I think that's the the end, the end result, that's where everything happens is, is by affecting each other as humans, we talked about bringing the cause to the table. And just to wrap that up, I was part of the Georgia Lake society board for a while. And they would actually hold their meetings on lakes, not literally on pontoon boats or anything, but there would be like, you know, facilities on lakes, that we would go and take breaks throughout their meeting to go appreciate the lakes or do a little field trip around the lake and look at wetlands and stuff like that, you know, that kind of thing just puts a real presence to the to the work that you're hoping you get to do on a much larger scale.

Julia Campbell:

Exactly. I think board meetings that, you know, there's something to be said for board meetings held at like the Ritz Carlton, right, that's fine, if you want to do that. But holding a board meeting, if you're able to at the YMCA or the Boys and Girls Club or the after school program or in the shelter wherever it is. I think that's that's something that's really powerful. And I think the board members really appreciate it. I also find that board members, sometimes they don't want to ask for a tour or they don't they don't want to step on the toes of the development director of the IDI sometimes they do and I know some people listening I know especially so my clients are like, Oh no, they do want to step on our toes. Then there's the other angle where I think they a lot of board members, especially new board members, younger board members, they are just listening learning and they don't want to encroach, and they don't want to put more work on the plate of the development director or the EEG. So any way that we can be proactive and inviting them into our work or even just having lunch with them and coffee with them and I remember being a development director and having to manage the board with the IDI and my board was absolutely lovely and wonderful. And of course We have to understand, like you said, they're humans, there's going to be a few of them, you don't get along with, there's going to be a few of them that you really like. It's just human nature. And there's also seasons. So sometimes a board member might be having a new baby, or sometimes a board member might be going through tax season, or we have to understand that they're human. They're volunteers. They're dedicated to the cause. But there are different, you know, there's all sorts of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know.

Mickey Desai:

Exactly. That's exactly right. You touched on something a second ago, you know, I've often said that it's the nonprofit's duty to make sure that their development people get to interact with every single board member to help the development effort. And I think that, you know, new board members should not wait for the development director to call them. I think new board board members should get on and learn the machinations of the actual nonprofit, but then that new board members should be proactive in calling at least the Development Director, it's not the executive director to say, Hey, let's go have a cup of coffee and talk more about, you know, the immediate board agenda for me as an individual. And there's nothing wrong with doing that.

Julia Campbell:

Well, tell me about your podcast. I love talking to other podcasters. How long have you been doing the nonprofit snap cast?

Mickey Desai:

Oh, my goodness, I am losing track of time. I want to say that I've been doing it in earnest for going on four years now. Maybe less than that, maybe four? I don't know. And I can try to look that up here in the background while we're talking. But technically, I started it back in 2008, when I started the nonprofit snapshot, and I did a few episodes back then. But 2008 was not really primetime for podcasts. You're ahead of the curve, maybe. So. So yeah, three years of my pod. My podcast host says that I've been doing this for three years. I've done how many episodes 279 episodes in that time. And it's just been a ton of fun meeting people across the country, in fact, across the world to talk about various nonprofit things that apply to an American nonprofit audience. So I'm really enjoying that kind of interaction with folks.

Julia Campbell:

What are some of your most memorable podcasts, you don't have to call people out by name, but some nuggets of information that stuck with you.

Mickey Desai:

There was one woman who's got an accounting and finance background who talked about the most damaging mistakes people can make with the form 990. That one, you know, it seems like a really dry topic. And it is right. It's just finance people. And I'm one of those people who looks at spreadsheets and I start to glaze over once they get past the second column. You know, that's that kind of thing is, I think, incredibly valuable to think about your 990 as being a central pillar of what finance is supposed to be for your organization. And to use it as a tool. I've had another guest who said you should be using your 990 as a tool to help your nonprofit tell that story. And I think that that was an interesting way to look at the 990. And not just not just an IRS obligation that costs you money to do at the end of the year, right. I did a case study with an organization out of Grand Rapids, Michigan, with one consultant talking about some assessment work that they did with one of his clients. And

Julia Campbell:

Like March Madness? that was, I think, great, I would like to do more case studies to talk about interventions to help nonprofits improve either leadership or programs, there's something I want to do just to turn the table a little bit, I would like to, I would like to do a CRM Bake Off, it's been on my desk for a long time, and I just haven't put any money in money. I haven't put any time into it. Yeah, we were gonna call it a cage match originally, but then decided that maybe that was a little too aggressive or violent so. So CRM bake off when the intent there was to create an actual ladder system to get people to debate the various merits and downfalls of of their chosen CRM system and then have like a Final Four moment or semi finals or something like thatleading down to whoever It's something like that, you know, we'll start with maybe six to eight of the bigger ones, you know, there's Donor Perfect, there's Salesforce, there's, gosh, I can't think of the others now all of a sudden, neon one.

Mickey Desai:

Thank you. Yeah.

Julia Campbell:

Forgive me my lovely friends who work at all of these. Yes. And then I have so many friends at work. That's where I'm like, you give in Bloomerang, and little green light, and there's so many but you're right, you need to do tiered. Exactly. It needs to be tiered my original thought one of the original thought was just to put four of them on mic at once and let them have it out. And I'm like, No, that's not organized. Okay. Well, I I'm sure you do, too. I know a lot of people and they're probably some of them are listening. So if you're interested in a CRM, bakeoff contact Mickey and Mickey that's a perfect segue where can people contact you?

Mickey Desai:

Yeah, folks can easily find me on LinkedIn. Just look for Mickey Desai that's D as in David E S A I, and it's Mickey Mouse But don't get me sued by Disney for anything

Julia Campbell:

They got bigger fish to fry these days I think

Mickey Desai:

I think they do. Yes. But otherwise, you know, the nonprofit snap cast website is a good way to get me that's nonprofit snap cast dot ORG and nonprofit snapshot dot ORG is also sending emails directly to me. But LinkedIn works just as well as email. And I'm happy to talk to anyone about any number of things as they relate to nonprofit management.

Julia Campbell:

Awesome. Thanks, Mickey for being here. It's fun.

Mickey Desai:

Julia, this has been great. Thanks for having me on.

Julia Campbell:

Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn