How to Build A Strong Leadership Team with Joan Garry

Joan Garry’s Nonprofit Leadership Lab opens it’s doors for one last day this year - October 3! Get your invite here https://jcsocialmarketing.com/lab/ 

Joan Garry is the go-to resource for hundreds of thousands of nonprofit leaders worldwide. Through her blog, podcast and book, Joan Garry’s Guide to Nonprofit Leadership, she has become the ‘Dear Abby’ of the nonprofit sector, advocating for the success of nonprofits, large and small. 

As a columnist for the Chronicle of Philanthropy, contributor to Harvard Business Review and Forbes Magazine, among others, Joan is a preeminent media spokesperson and thought leader on the role of the nonprofit sector in our society and is a sought after voice on issues facing the sector today.  

Joan is also the founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, often called the Netflix for small nonprofits, the monthly subscription they can’t live without, it is an the online educational and community portal she leads for board and staff leaders of small nonprofits.  

What we discussed 

• There is a right way and a wrong way to build a Leadership Team. 
• Tips for EDs to build a strong Leadership Team
• How to empower staff
• Tips for year-end and how to manage all the moving parts 

Connect with Joan:

• Twitter:    https://twitter.com/joangarry 
• LinkedIn:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/joangarry/ 
• Facebook:  https://facebook.com/joangarryconsulting 
• Instagram:   https://instagram.com/joangarryconsulting
• Website: https://www.joangarry.com/ 

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass,  3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

Julia Campbell  0:02  

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started.

Julia Campbell  0:51  

Hi, everyone, welcome back to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, thank you so much for being here. Again today. Thrilled to be in your earbuds with you wherever you are. And I'm thrilled today to have one of my absolute favorite podcast guests. She was number two, my number two guests on nonprofit nation. And she really needs no introduction. Today we're talking to Joan Geary, we're talking about how to build a strong leadership team. If you don't know Joan, she's the go to resource for hundreds of 1000s of nonprofit leaders worldwide. She has a blog, a podcast and a book Joan Gary's Guide to Nonprofit Leadership, she has become the Dear Abby of the nonprofit sector. I love that. She's also the founder of the nonprofit leadership Lab, which we'll talk about today, often called the Netflix for small nonprofits, the monthly subscription they can't live without. And it's the online educational and community portal she leads for board and staff leaders. Now if you're listening to this, when it comes out next week, she is going to open the doors to the lab for one day only. You want to make sure you get on the invite list. I have all the information that my website, JC social marketing.com/lab. And also we'll put the links in the show notes. Even if the lab is closed when you're listening to this, just make sure you get on the waitlist for the next time that it's open. So welcome back, Joan.

Joan Garry  2:26  

Julia, thank you. This is fun. It's always fun. I did not realize I was your second guest. And and I'm happy you invited me back?

Julia Campbell  2:34  

Yeah, of course. So today we'll talk about leadership, I think it's something that is pretty evergreen, and everyone is thinking about and talking about, especially in this post or pandemic adjacent world that we're living in. And you write that your philosophy is simple. I love this. You wrote this in one of your blog posts. You don't get to call yourself a team until you earn it. So when we're talking about strong leadership teams and strong teams, how do you earn it? And what are some practical ways an executive director can build an actual leadership team?

Joan Garry  3:10  

So it's a funny thing, because it's a pet peeve of mine, people will say, Yes, I have a, you know, I'm an executive director, and I have a team and I will save them. Well, how do you know that they're a team? That's good. You're right, right? Because how are they different from a collection of direct reports. And people just use that word, and they don't get to use it unless they deserve it. And the way that you actually I think the way that you at you, in fact, build a leadership team is you tell your direct reports that you need a team to lead effectively, that nobody leads alone, that each of them plays a unique instrument in your organization's orchestra. And that they need to make that beautiful music together with you. So that's the setup. And then you've just actually got to be super explicit. You can't just assume that people who are on your leadership team understand what you expect from them as a team member, right? What does it mean? What do you expect from these people? And then give them the opportunity to actually say, here's what I need from you to meet those expectations. And these are super important setup conversations to have with folks who report to you and that team changes every single time. Someone new joins the team, a team becomes new every time someone new leaves, or joins.

Julia Campbell  4:54  

I think that's amazing. I really agree with the fact that people do refer to that their employees, their direct reports, people that they work with as a team. And I'm just thinking about the new league of their own series on Amazon. I don't know if you watch that. I did. Yeah. And how it was in the beginning, a bunch of just collective egos not really working together. And then of course, you know, the show is about how they all become a team and how they manage their egos. And like you just said, when a new person comes in, it changes the dynamic, and you have to figure that out. And you have to figure out how you're all going to function together. And I love the analogy, also of an orchestra.

Joan Garry  5:35  

It's interesting, too. So I'm a big baseball fan. And I'm watching my favorite, my beloved Yankees, slump their way into the playoffs. And I know you're from Boston. So I know that this is a problem for you. But you know, I think about somebody like Derek Jeter, who is a rock star in his own right, but he would be the first person to help a second baseman that was having trouble turning a double play, to like stay after to practice that double play, because he understands that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and that he that his ability to succeed is intrinsically connected to that second baseman's ability to succeed. And that's actually what you're really going for.

Julia Campbell  6:17  

A rising tide lifts all boats, yes, like that. So what does the leadership team look like? And I know you have years of experience, both managing building and creating leadership teams and coaching leadership teams now. So in your experience, what does this really look like?

Joan Garry  6:37  

So I will talk from my own experience of running a nonprofit when I was at GLAAD for a decade, a good leadership team is diverse. And I mean that in the broadest definition of the word, different experiences, skill sets, ways of looking at problems, so that when you come together to talk, I'm not just getting a whole bunch of people who just say, Yeah, you know, a Joan, whatever you think works for us, right? I want people who have enough self efficacy that they will say, You know what, I respectfully disagree with that. And they can say that to their colleague, or they can say that to me, and effective leadership team, fundamental to what I just said, is trust, I need to trust that I've had pushback on the leader that they're not going to hold it against me, I need to trust my colleagues, that they've thought about something that maybe I think they've thought about so that I'm not perceived to be sort of in their business in the wrong kinds of ways. I also think that one of the ways you can most effectively look at how a leadership and what a what an effective team leadership team looks like, is to look at the leadership team meetings that they have. If I just sit in on a leadership team meeting, in 10 minutes, I can tell you whether you actually have a team or not, folks will talk about what's going on in their lives. And you can see a general care and concern for and about each other, that the agenda is carefully curated. So it is not a list of to do's but rather has some kind of core topics that cross all aspects of the organization, that members feel free, disagreeing, agreeably, that members of the team feel comfortable offering input on other members goals, out of a place of curiosity. You know, it's interesting, these are your goals for the coming year, I think they're terrific. I wondered if you considered x as a goal. And if you did, why you didn't include it. Because that's, that's really interesting to me, I expected to see that like to come from a place of curiosity with your colleagues, to learn to begin to have difficult conversations, which is not easy and a learned skill. And that everybody is clear about the outcome needed for each of those agenda items. And let me just say really quickly, Julia, what I have just described doesn't just happen overnight, and requires a great deal of intention. I run a leadership team meeting in my own enterprise. And it is this afternoon at one o'clock, and it's 90 minutes. And I probably spend at least that much time thinking carefully about how to make the most of that time.

Julia Campbell  9:26  

That's a really great point meetings are so vital, both for morale and to make sure everyone's on the same page, but also to make sure everyone feels like they have been heard, and that they can offer this input, they can ask these difficult questions that they can be engaged. And I think for a lot of my listeners, if when they hear things like leadership team, they might not think that it applies to them, but it's like you said if you're running a department, even if you're running a department with three volunteers or in turns, all of this is still applicable.

Joan Garry  10:03  

It's totally applicable. And in fact, people will ask me, how is it different to manage volunteers than paid staff? And the answer is really no, it's not. It's really not. And that and to think about volunteers as being managed differently, is usually a setup for a poor volunteer experience for both parties.

Julia Campbell  10:22  

So what about managing nonprofit staff? So, first of all, do you believe in the great resignation? And secondly, how can we combat the great attrition, the resignation, the shift? would, you know, whatever you want to call it, that's happening in the world of employment right now. So how do we manage staff in this environment?

Joan Garry  10:48  

So do I believe in the great resignation? I mean, I think factually, it's, it's hard to ignore. Right, right. 

Julia Campbell  10:53  

Some people say that, no, they think that it's just a shift that people aren't really resigning. They're just changing jobs. But I don't know, I do think that people are, are getting really sick of being paid nothing and treated like garbage.

Joan Garry  11:06  

So I think great resignation, you know, I think is a broad umbrella. Right? Yes. I think there have been a lot of people that have said, okay, you know, a global pandemic in which a million people die, gives me pause, how do I want to live my life? What kind of mark do I want to make? Am I happy spending eight hours a day, or 10 hours a day doing X? And revisiting that and recognizing that life is short. And I have believed for a long time that the nonprofit sector actually holds the key to meaning and purpose. And that we just kind of do a lousy job of marketing the nonprofit sector as a place where meaning and purpose are found. I also think that we have done a lousy job of dedicating ourselves to pay equity. However, pay equity is actually a critical piece of the puzzle in every organization, profit or nonprofit. But we've got meaning and purpose in the nonprofit sector. And I believe that's at the heart, at the heart of the great resignation, either. It's I want to retire because I am baby boomer age. And, you know, I want my last chapter to be a really good one with my family and my grandchildren, etc. But I think many people are looking for meaning and purpose. And they should, they should come on over to our side and see it, see it clearly. And we should be doing a better job of marketing it.

Julia Campbell  12:35  

So for younger generations, I've read a lot about millennials. I mean, millennials, of course, are in their 40s. Now the oldest millennials, but Gen Z and the generation after them, and Gen Z is poised to be the largest generation even bigger than the baby boomers. And I'm not sure that nonprofits truly understand that they have vastly different expectations of their workplaces. So how can we better connect with these younger generations? And what do they really care about?

Joan Garry  13:07  

What they do have vastly different expectations of their workplaces, they expect to have a voice, they have been burned badly by institutions. So they have a built in skepticism about institutions and the sort of hierarchical power structure. Deloitte did a study and said that 47% of millennials are actively looking for diversity in their workplace when sizing up potential employers. And I coach a lot of CEOs who find Gen Z millennial employees to be entitled to, you know, sort of not get it right. And I think it is incumbent upon leaders outside of these generations not to actually dismiss that, but to embrace that and say, Okay, this is a different generation with a different set of expectations. How do I make that work for my organization, they make up the largest percentage of individuals entering the workforce today, and you're going to blow them off as entitled, as my mother would say, snot nosed kids, like, know that you do so at your own peril. And I think that the nonprofit sector, we are the sector that can most look at how we are organized. Think about diffuse power structures. Think about how to engage our employees and our staff in ways that make them feel that make them that give them legit agency and voice not always vote, but legit agency and voice. We have something to learn from these generations. And I often far too often see an arrogance in older generations about these younger Gen durations. And it is just, it's bad for business. It's bad for social impact. It's just bad all around, we've got to figure out a way to take their secret sauce and make it our organization's secret sauce. Yeah.

Julia Campbell  15:15  

it's interesting because I think that millennials and Gen Z, think Baby Boomers and Gen X are a little bit entitled. So I think there's that kind of flip side of it. Whereas they don't get it, they bought their house for $40,000 in 1977. They don't understand like, you worked somewhere for 30 years now, there's no job security. So I love what you said. I mean, I think just coming at it from a place of trying to understand and recognizing that our lived experiences are not the same, but trying to really understand each other.

Joan Garry  15:49  

So funny, we spend so much time talking about the importance of diversity. And then we look at age diversity in our organizations, and we do a really lousy job of being conscious of it, of embracing it is pretty ironic, actually.

Julia Campbell  16:06  

I think so too. So how do we help employees or people that are direct reports, people that we work with? How do we help the people that we are on this team with feel empowered?

Joan Garry  16:19  

So who's drawn to become Julia, who do you think? What's the person who is drawn to be a leader at a nonprofit? What do you see as common attributes my turned in? Turn the question to you,

Julia Campbell  16:31  

I think Enneagram eight, or five? No, you want to be I'm an Enneagram eight 

Joan Garry  16:37  

and I'm an eight too as well, 

Julia Campbell  16:38  

That's not surprising. But I think people that want to make a change in the world and maybe didn't grow up, being trained as a leader, I certainly didn't go to I didn't get my MBA, you know, I didn't go to business school, I went for marketing, but want to have a voice want to make some kind of change in the world want to make their imprint want to create their legacy. That's how I see people that found nonprofits,

Joan Garry  17:06  

I had friendly amendments driven, overachievers, Type A personalities, people with a pretty good dose of control freak,

Julia Campbell  17:17  

control, freak micromanager. I didn't want to say it, but okay, 

Joan Garry  17:21  

Well that's why you have me as your guest.

Julia Campbell  17:24  

Absolutely.

Joan Garry  17:25  

So this is how do you make employees feel empowered, is you actually look in the mirror and say, I am a type A personality. And I know that I think that I can get it done more quickly and more easily if I just do it myself. And if you want volunteers, right, right, smaller organizations, they'd be lucky to have employees. So you have to rely on others, you have to actually let go a little bit. I joke about this, because I think it's one of the hardest things about parenting older children is I can manage a situation or I can let go entirely but letting go a little bit is just actually horrifying to me. So letting go a little bit, how do you make them feel empowered, is you let the rope out a little bit with clear expectations of what success looks like, start with an employee that's just started and say, Okay, let's sit down and say how will we know this is going really well together? 30 days, whatever, like three or four things we can both agree on. And then extend that out to 90 days. So that you start to let go a little, they start to feel empowered. And then by the end of that 90 day period, a you'll know whether the letting go has paid off, you'll know whether you've created a real good partnership with that employee. And it is a way for you to train yourself to let go because you've actually identified these markers that say, if these things are true at the end of 60 days, then I can trust that I can empower that person even more on the next thing. It is an incremental thing. But it starts with a person looking in the mirror and saying, Okay, I cannot do it all. I cannot do it alone. My clients deserve better. And if I don't empower my employees, if I don't give them some autonomy, what is it that Daniel Pink talks about? Right? autonomy, mastery and purpose. I need to give my employees autonomy. You know, I got the hook on purpose. And am I giving my staff the opportunity to learn new skills to try new things? Those are the things that matter, right. Those are the things that matter. And the last thing that I will say there's a study that says that 70% of someone's job satisfaction is tied to not how much money they make, but their relationship with their boss. So you want to be a great nonprofit leader, you've got to be an awesome boss.

Julia Campbell  20:09  

Wow, I love what you said about being a parent because I feel that pain so acutely, right now, my daughter is in eighth grade, and she has to get on the bus at 7am. So what we used to do is I would wake up at six, wake her up, make her breakfast, do all the stuff for her. And this year, we decided, We're not going to do that. And she doesn't want me to do that anymore. So actually, for me, that's kind of hard, because now I'm like, Oh, well, I can still have my son, who's in second grade that I can do that for. But for me, it was hard because she wanted total, like you just said, autonomy, mastery and purpose. And we had very clear expectations. If you missed the bus, you get your phone taken away. So it's very clear expectations you can't ever friend over. And it's been going really, really well. But I feel like it's been easier for her but harder for me because I'm so used to being the boss of the situation.

Joan Garry  21:03  

It's really easy for folks like you and me Julia to keep our hands really tight on the steering wheel. That's the go to position. But I do find high school, college after college. It's torturous was the word that came to mind. But perhaps I could come up with something a little kinder than that. And I there are people who have kids your age who will not talk to me about what it's like to have grown kids, I have a 32 year old daughter and 27 year old twins, a boy and a girl and they are wonderful human beings. And I think it's the biggest challenge of being a parent is parenting older kids.

Julia Campbell  21:40  

I think we're all in the weeds together. And I said this to a friend the other day, who has really small children, you know, under six, and I said, you know you're in the weeds. And he said to me, no, you're in the weeds do. They're just different weeds. I was like, You're right. We never get out of the weeds.

Joan Garry  21:57  

If I can use an inappropriate word for a moment. It's a really good story. My our OBGYN got out of her obstetrics practice when her kids became high school age. And I was like, I don't get it. I don't get a gel like, like your kids are out of the hat like cab the house are not little anymore. And she said, anyone can change your kid's diaper, but only you can tell your kid they're being an asshole.

Julia Campbell  22:23  

I love that. I will definitely make a note that Joan Garry said an explicit word. And I'm just kidding. But I think that's exactly right. And I also I really do see the parallels to being a leader. And because it's all about, like you just said, releasing that control empowering people, but not empowering them in a fake performative way.

Joan Garry  22:48  

We are having this conversation about, you know, organizations where there are employees. And, you know, we certainly know that not enough 65% of nonprofit organizations are lucky if they have employees. But that doesn't mean that the same rules don't apply. You have to let go. You have to find volunteers, you have to identify an army of people that can help you do this work. And you need to listen to this podcast, through the same exact lens is how do I make a volunteer feel a sense of value? How do I let go enough to delegate all of those things, they all apply. And they apply in some ways. And I've learned this through the, you know, the work we do in the nonprofit leadership lab where we have, you know, 5000 members, most of whom run organizations, that might be a quarter of a million dollar budget, you know, and they don't have the luxury yet of staff. But if they just choose to do the work alone, and they don't build a posse, they go down, they go down in terms of self care, they are not able to actually get the visibility their organizations need, that their clients deserve. And so take all of these lessons and think about them, regardless of the size of your organization, because they all apply.

Julia Campbell  24:11  

And yeah, kind of playing on that point. What about burnout? I mean, we're getting into year end, fundraising season, Giving Tuesday, various holidays, I'm already burned out and it's September. So how can we inspire pump up? Whether you have employees or not the people that you're working with and avoid burnout? What are your tips on that?

Joan Garry  24:37  

So my go to is that when people are feeling burnt out? It is because they have somehow or another strayed from touching the work. They're at their computer. It's become about tactics. It's become about running lists of potential donors. It's become about the budget number readers and how are we going to get them to balance and they forget what the work is about. And so calling a donor who supports the work and just chatting about telling a story about the work, remember that everybody comes to your organization with sort of a light on I call it like a pilot light, mission, pilot light. And you have one, two, the antidote to burnout is touching the work reminding yourself why it's important. And stoking that light in other people, I do believe that that's actually one of the most important things that happens. The other way that you avoid burnout, we just been talking about a Julia is that you don't do it by yourself. Or you, you know, you join a community of kindred spirits, and share best practices on how to you know how to go home at a reasonable hour, introduce pure accountability with your colleagues in other in your community, in places like the nonprofit leadership lab where you say, I haven't taken a vacation in two years. Well, well, who's that on? And how can you actually introduce some pure accountability to make sure that you take time for yourself, I mean, I coached a client who said, my goal is that I, you know, I gained X number of pounds, because I stopped going to yoga three times a week, if six months from now after working with you, I'm back at yoga three times a week, then I will consider this to have been a successful engagement. And we worked to take her death grip off the steering wheel of her organization, to delegate more, she raise some more money, she hired a deputy. And I have this fabulous photograph of her doing like stand up yoga on a paddleboard, and it reminds me that you can make it happen for yourself,

Julia Campbell  26:56  

touch the work. That's such important advice. And my story of my first time as a development director, and marketing director, at the same time, worked in a building completely separate from the organization. And it was so hard for me to touch the work, it was a domestic violence organization. And I did find that when I actually sat down and you know, sat in on a support group or sat in on the, you know, after school program or talk to the staff members, that I would get immediately reattached, and you know, sort of find the purpose again, it's like you said the pilot light. So a lot of people listening are you know, development directors, marketing directors, everyone has a million things on their plate. So I think touching the work, being close to it, whatever that means for you, around year end will help you when there are so many fires to put out and we'll help you.

Joan Garry  27:54  

There's a an exercise we did as a team called the Love it, loath it list. And it was part of a Marcus Buckingham does something called the standout assessment, which we really liked a lot. In fact, it is not just about who you are, but who you are on a team. And it's quite a good assessment. And we had a facilitator come in and had us as pre work, it was really easy. We just kept a list on our desk, and it had at the top Love it, love it. And every day we had to write down something about our day that we loved and something about our day that we closed. And we assessed it, we looked at it relative to each other's lists, but it also we were able to look at that love it lists. And we were able to say okay, I got to do more of that love stuff. And as it turned out, like some people's love list was other people's love list. And so we made some accommodations so that people were doing more of the work they loved. And if you get a diverse team, not everybody's love list is going to be the same. It was a really interesting exercise. And if you make that sort of love it list, you can go to it and say, Oh, I didn't do any of those kinds of activities today. I got I got to do some of those, because they're actually going to fuel me.

Julia Campbell  29:08  

That's fantastic advice. I'll put those links the standout assessment. I love the love it. I love the love at low that exercise is just so simple. I think it's just something very simple. You can do a sort of like time tracking, I tell a lot of my clients to actually track their time when they're trying to advocate either for another employee or they're trying to advocate to get things taken off their plate. So any way that you can track these things. Well tell me about the nonprofit leadership lab. I know it's opening. For one day doors are opening for one day and I know they open pretty infrequently. So encourage people to get on the invite list but tell me about the great things that go on in the lab.

Joan Garry  29:51  

It is one of the most rewarding things I have done professionally. Its origin story quite briefly was realizing that my A blog was generating a lot of interest from people who wanted advice. And were not going to be able to afford consulting or coaching. And I felt like I had created this expectation, and I feel really terrible about it. And then my business partner, Scott Paley, and I said, What if we built a membership site that was modestly priced, that could provide those smaller nonprofits with the resources, the content and the community that they need to fuel their leadership and management, it's really taken off there, about two thirds of nonprofits have budgets under a million, and about two thirds of them have budgets under half a million. And, you know, think about your own communities and think about your why or your, you know, sort of the organization that helps folks who are in recovery, or, you know, those things, what I call the small, not the smaller nonprofits that turn a town into a community. These are the folks who are a part of our lab from North America and are in English speaking countries around the world. And we offer them time saving content checklists, a sample board, meeting agendas, quick wins on how to consider deal with a with an incomprehensible mission statement. You no longer masterclasses on how to build the how to build and diversify your board. And those things actually work. And it does not take years to build a strong board. By the way, just so you know, we do intensive like boot camps where we take our content, and we take up a group of folks through a six week intensive on fundraising or grant writing or a growing number of board members have joined the leadership Lab, which to me is one of the heart most heartening signs about the future of our sector, if more board members actually saw a need for their own professional development, or sector would be so much stronger. And then we have, you know, just this robust online, private community. I'm in there all the time I do monthly Q and A's. And you know, we bring in experts on topics that I am not an expert on. And so actually we had just had a woman come in and talk about managing multigenerational teams, and you know that one expert seminar was worth an entire year's membership. And I did one on Instagram. Yes, you did. Indeed. And you know, these one, one of these experts seminars is worth a year's worth subscription. And I always want people to say I, I got so much more out of it, you know, for the modest price. And the reason that we open it in frequently is so that we can create a bit of a cohort or community. So that's what we're doing in early October. And people have real success. And they what we'll hear all the time is when I before I joined the lab, I felt so alone, and I felt ill equipped to do my job. And now I feel neither of those things. I really feel like I'm part of something, I feel like there's somebody who's really in my court, and I'm getting the resource real things are happening, whether it's raising money or having better board meetings, that this stuff really works.

Julia Campbell  33:11  

Well. That's what it's all about. And if you want to get your own invite, if you're listening to the lab, go to JC social marketing.com, forward slash lab. You can also go to Joan Garry.com. And Joan is Joan Gary, on all the socials. I'll put all this all the links in the show notes. So, Joan, it's always a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Joan Garry  33:37  

You know what I love talking to fellow colleagues, who are kindred spirits in recognizing that the nonprofit sector is kind of this compass that's driving us towards a civil society and that people like you and people like me. And this posse of folks who are providing resources to the nonprofit sector are doing so because of this deep commitment to what the nonprofit sector really does for our society. And so it's always a pleasure to just chat with you about your thoughts about the sector, and what can make it more impactful because we need it.

Julia Campbell  34:20  

Oh, well, thank you. And thanks for all the work that you do. My pleasure.

Julia Campbell  34:30  

Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn