How to Build an Equitable World with Technology with Amy Sample Ward and Afua Bruce

Amy and Afua will be kicking off the Nonprofit Social Media Summit with their keynote: The Tech That Comes Next! Sign up here!

Changing the way we use, develop, and fund technology for social change is possible, and it starts with you.

My guests in this special bonus podcast episode are Amy Sample Ward and Afua Bruce, authors of The Tech That Comes Next: How Changemakers, Philanthropists, and Technologists Can Build an Equitable World . This important book outlines a vision of a more equitable and just world along with practical steps to creating it, appropriately leveraging technology along the way.

AMY SAMPLE WARD (they/them), believes that technology should be accessible and accountable to everyone, especially communities historically and systemically excluded from the digital world. They are the CEO of NTEN, a nonprofit creating a world where missions and movements are more successful through the skillful and equitable use of technology. Amy’s second book, Social Change Anytime Everywhere, was a Terry McAdam Book Award finalist.

AFUA BRUCE (she/hers) is a leading public interest technologist who has spent her career working at the intersection of technology, policy, and society. Her career has spanned the government, non-profit, private, and academic sectors, as she has held senior science and technology positions at DataKind, the White House, the FBI, and IBM. Afua has a bachelor’s degree in computer engineering, as well as an MBA.

Connect with Amy and Afua:

• Twitter:  @amyrsward @afua_bruce
• Website: https://thetechthatcomesnext.com/

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass,  3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

Julia Campbell  0:00  

The Nonprofits Social Media Summit is back and better than ever. This year. The summit is all virtual and coming directly to your screens on November 2nd and 3rd, speakers include Amy Sample Ward, Afua Bruce,  Lisa Mae Brunson. And of course yours truly, and many more. We're covering everything from tik tok to time management, Facebook ads to influencer marketing, get your free ticket at nonprofitssocialmediasummit.com. And I'll see you there.

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.

Julia Campbell  1:21  

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to nonprofit Nation. I'm so excited to have you here. I am your host, Julia Campbell. And today we're going to be talking about one of my actual favorite topics, technology, we're going to be talking about equity, we're going to be talking about how to merge the two with community needs. And we're talking about a brand new book that I read that I think is fabulous. That's a lot of people have been talking about the tech that comes next how changemakers philanthropists and technologists can build an equitable world. And I have two guests with me the co authors of this book, Afua. Bruce is a leading public interest technologist who has spent her career working at the intersection of technology, policy and society. Her career has spanned the government, nonprofit, private and academic sectors. And she's held Senior Science and Technology positions at data kind the White House, the FBI and IBM, a Fua has a Bachelor's degree in Computer Engineering as well as an MBA. We are also talking to Amy sample Ward, who believes the technology should be accessible and accountable to everyone, especially communities historically and systemically excluded from the digital world. They are the CEO of n10, a nonprofit creating a world where missions and movements are more successful through the skillful and equitable use of technology. So we're talking about today, Amy second book, social change anytime everywhere, was a terry macadam Book Award finalist. So welcome, Amy. Welcome, Afua.

Amy Sample Ward  3:00  

Thanks for having us.

Afua Bruce  3:02  

So glad to be with you today.

Julia Campbell  3:04  

I am so thrilled. And Amy, I wanted to say that my very first nonprofit conference was a NonProfit Technology Conference in DC years ago. And I had just really been dipping my toes into the work that I'm doing now, and didn't know anyone and didn't really know any other consultants and I just felt so welcomed and just felt at home. I've thought oh, I found my people I finally found like the place I belong. 

Amy Sample Ward  3:35  

The way we describe the NTC is the homecoming to the family you did not know you had and now you are in it deep. Doesn't matter where you go next, like this will always be a place that can be your home.

Julia Campbell  3:47  

Absolutely. And that's exactly how I felt. And I know you are a huge part in cultivating that. So just want to say thank you. So I usually start the podcast, I would love to hear. Let's start with a Fula. Tell me about your background, and how you came to be passionate about the work you're doing.

Afua Bruce  4:06  

Absolutely. I started my career off as a traditional software engineer. My undergraduate is in computer engineering, and all through undergrad and after graduating from Purdue, I worked as a software engineer at IBM. I really enjoyed that work and completely had planned to and had written all sorts of career goals and career plans to stay on that track and move up into eventually executive management in the traditional tech sector. But along the way, I ended up taking a detour I first ended up being recruited or first was recruited by the FBI for a variety of science and technology leadership positions and working at the FBI was really my first exposure to the fact that technology can really be used to advance the mission of impact driven organizations and even more so that technology GE, the use of technology, how we design it, how we think about how its deployed, how we engage people in the process of making decisions about technology really does have a strong effect on communities. From there, I was hooked into the social impact sector and spent some time at the White House, spent some time at a think tank spent some time working with nonprofits all around the US and around the world as well. And so now I just spend a lot of time thinking deeply about how can we make sure technology works better for all of us? How do we make sure historically, overlooked or excluded communities are part of the conversation around technology? And how do we make sure that social impact organizations, which often have missions that we've said are really important, actually have the right infrastructure and are thinking about the right tools to use in order to make sure they can do their missions?

Julia Campbell  5:56  

 Well, wow, thank you. All right, Amy, you want to go?

Amy Sample Ward  6:00  

 Yeah, you know, I was just laughing to myself, because a fool and I, through knowing each other for years, and through writing this book, you know, often really reflect on how many values we have, that aren't, are shared, how many experiences we've had that are the same how many lessons we've both learned. But you know, I've never said the sentence the FBI recruited me, it makes me think

Julia Campbell  6:22  

of X Files. I'm dating myself, but it makes me think of sounds of the Lambs. 

Amy Sample Ward  6:29  

 But that's. my experience was not like that.

Julia Campbell  6:32  

It wasn't a movie experience. Okay.

Amy Sample Ward  6:35  

So with that out of the way, just in case anybody thought I do had been recruited by the FBI, my experience is like, similar but different, really coming to this work today. So my work really started in using technology, but for community mobilization. So how do we, you know, organize young people to Canvas? How do we get out the vote? How do we create mutual aid support networks? How do we surface ideas from people most impacted by an issue like public education, and let their voices guide the policy proposals or the practice changes within schools, all of those things have been part of my my work and my jobs. And I think that has really influenced me, through my whole kind of like the through line of my whole career has been technology as a tool for community power, you know, and that is certainly something we talk about in the book, certainly something we'll probably talk about today. But I think when we when I think about technology, and what it can mean for helping us build that better world, that more equitable world, it has to be because the community has the power, the community has accountability. Right? And not that, as we see, often, you know, right now that communities are maybe like the end of the line of power, right? Like the ones with the least say and how those terms of service might work or what privacy policies are in place. And hopefully, we can move our relationship with technology to a place where where that gets flipped around. And communities are the ones setting those priorities.

Julia Campbell  8:17  

So in the introduction, you've wrote, people sometimes think that technology is the way to address inequality. We don't think that and that's not what we suggest in this book. So it sort of plants that flag, and draws a line in the sand, which I really liked. So, Amy, I guess I will send this over to question over to you. What was the impetus for this book?

Amy Sample Ward  8:38  

What a great question. I think, a fool and I have both had so many experiences, where we're working at this intersection of people using and enjoying and building and everything else with technology and trying, you know, having a goal for a better world. But so often folks are so focused on that technology to, you know, something that we tried to really avoid in the book and don't like go do some search in the digital copy and prove us wrong. But you know, we really tried to avoid ever referring to technology as a solution in this book, because technology is not going to save us you all if it was going to we'd be saved. Like this would be the saving. And we are not saved by technology. And so we really wanted to build this book on a foundation of people are the ones who are creating and finding and our solutions, right and that together we are building what we want. But technology is always in its spot as a tool in service to our goals. We should not be here in service to technology, we should not be fitting our missions into the fields that some you know commercial technology product that we're trying to use. Those products need to fit into our mission and need to fit into the needs that we have and not the other way around.

Julia Campbell  9:58  

Afua, do you want to add to that?

Afua Bruce  10:00  

Amy has said it all. So Well, I think one of the things Amy just said that, you know, sticks out to me and I think was at the front of my mind as we were writing this book is just the technology cannot save us. And it will not save us it has not saved us. And just that awareness. As I said, in my computer engineer by trade, I love engineering, I love creating technology, I love that life. But the reality is that technology has to be created and it is created, it should be created in service of people. Because we are here we are the ones creating it, we are the ones who decide what type of world we want to live. And we are the ones who decide what we value and what we don't value. We're the ones who decide who will be included and who will be excluded. And so when we can agree on the values that we want to see in the world, we can start to agree and to imagine what it might be to have an equitable world that's really one built around systemic inclusion, when we can start to think about what it means to make sure that people have the resources and the support, they need to be able to dream big dreams and to live their best lives, then we can enter into that conversation with what are the right tools to get us there? How do we design the right tools, and in many cases, it might be well designed technology. In some cases, it might not be a technical solution at all. And so I think just that awareness that technology can't save us, just reinforces the fact that it's all of us, that we all have a role. And we're the ones who can save ourselves with the the appropriately designed tools,

Julia Campbell  11:29  

and you write in the book. Since humans create technology, it can't be neutral, which is a really profound statement and absolutely true. And in my work, teaching nonprofits how to use digital marketing tools and platforms, specifically, I hear exactly what you're saying. There's such a focus on platforms first tools first, sort of, we have this problem, or maybe we don't even have a problem. It's like a solution looking for a problem sometimes. But it's also thinking that if we just get this CRM or a chatbot, or an automated sequence, or some other tool, that it's going to somehow solve all of our problems. But if we don't have that infrastructure in place, and also for not coming at it from the right mindset, it's not going to be effective. And it could actually be damaging, and harmful, which you do talk about,

Amy Sample Ward  12:20  

if only we just had a chat box, our problems would be solved.

Julia Campbell  12:26  

Right, we've seen a donate button, and we'll be raising all this money. So let's go back to who this book is for and a full, I would love for you to address this. I love that the book is structured around five key groups. But who is this book written for?

Afua Bruce  12:42  

Absolutely. The book is for everyone. Because one of the values that we lay out in the book is the fact that in order to have an equitable world, it really does take all of this it takes a diverse and collective body and coming up with what does it mean to have an equitable world it takes diversity of opinions and roles and expertise to define that and to actually build it. So it really is for everyone. The organizing structure that we use in the book, as you mentioned, is around five different roles. Because although it is for everyone, you probably want to have some idea of well, how do you engage? What types of power do you actually have access to what types of levers can you be pulling to make change in society. And so we've identified five roles. The first is social impact organizations. So these are organizations like nonprofits, like charities like mutual aid organizations, that really do have a strong, mission driven, focused and system that can also be academic institutions, or government agencies as well. The second role that we identified is that of funders and investors, and there we are looking at people who are funding this work, money, still, for better or worse, does make the world go round. And so really speaking in that section to venture capitalists, to corporations, to philanthropists, to individual investors, or donors in that space, who are funding this work. The third category that we identified is that of the technologist, so people who are building the technical solutions, and these can be folks somewhat similar to myself and that they have fancy degrees in some type of technology, perhaps or working at a corporation, but they can also be individuals who at your nonprofit you have, you're the last one standing when they said let's figure out what this tech system is going to look like. And you've sort of figured it out as well. And so technologist is the group that we have there. The fourth group that we have is policymakers people who are involved in the policymaking process. So this includes both elected officials, but it also includes staffers it includes people appointed in government agencies and more on the final and perhaps most important group that we identify as that of communities. And really recognizing to Amy's earlier point, the fact that communities have to be driving this process that we need to make sure that as we're thinking about an equitable world, and we're building that we are listening to communities, we are reacting to what communities want, and we're acting to what communities need. And so those are the five roles that we identify. I'll just also note that although they are five distinct roles, and they each have their own chapter in the book, you can hold more than one role. Your job may require you to have different roles. If you're at a nonprofit, you could be in social impact organization, but you also could then be sub granting to others. And then you are also a funder and investors. So I think it's also important to note that you might identify and gravitate towards one particular role. But you might also see yourself in multiple categories. And that's fine, too.

Julia Campbell  15:54  

Exactly. For me, I sit on a couple of boards, and then on the school board as well. So I would say we all probably wear multiple hats and can see this work through multiple lenses, which I think is interesting. But I love that it's set up that way, because it seems it's just very easily digestible. And you can kind of skip around or you can even refer chapters to specific people. Maybe some of our funders need to read this book as well.

Amy Sample Ward  16:24  

Your heart desires, please do. Yes.

Julia Campbell  16:27  

So I will ask this question, Amy, maybe you can start. So you write that this is not a how to book which I love. Because I think there's a lot of How To books out there. But you do provide some concrete examples. And I know that my listeners, I know, stakeholders really appreciate concrete examples. And I wonder if there's one example, I know that there's not one ring to rule them all, if there's to rule them all. I know, it took a ton of time and effort to collect all of the examples. And it's like choosing between your children, probably but can you share an example of just one of the stakeholder groups implementing the principles you talk about? Sure.

Amy Sample Ward  17:09  

Yeah. You know, I also want to just quickly share a reflection to what you were sharing before about, you know, folks are like, Oh, if only we had X, Y, and Z technology, right? Like we'd be, we'd be good. And we took the approach in this book of naming from the very start that technology isn't neutral. And so often I hear this pushback in organizations, and this gets to the example to that technology, if they do embrace the idea that technology is just a tool. Well, tools are neutral, right? They're like, you know, peep hammer is neutral, a saw as neutral. Even those things are filled with bias, the number of left handed people who die every year because tools were made for right handed people. My dad was a laborer for 45 years. So you want to talk construction tools, we could talk, we could change the podcast. You know, I think there's this magical thinking, when it comes to like, what's the metaphor we want to choose here. And we're gonna leave out all the other realities and take the part of the metaphor that works. But even embracing that technology is a tool, just like other tools in our life means we have to accept it. They're all built with bias. They're all built with assumptions. And presumptions that mean they're not going to work for everyone. And they're not going to be right for every situation, right? Like, you're not going to use a jackhammer to build the house, right? You're going to maybe use a nail gun, or a hammer, right? So there's so much even within the way we talk about technology that influences what we are even then telling ourselves as possible with that. And I think that's important for us to think about how we talk about it again, back to the point of like technology isn't the solution so that we're not setting ourselves up inside our organizations to think technology is the answer, or that it could never have an impact that we didn't intend for it to have, of course, it's going to have those unintended impacts, right, we really have to be clear about that. So one, I know a few and maybe can share another example too. So we get a couple in here. But one that I thought would be interesting to share is this example from an organization called leftover rescuing leftover cuisine, because they're a nonprofit, they, they built a technology, the way that I think so many nonprofits build technology where they don't realize they're building technology, right? They're just getting some tools in place for them to do their work right there. They had a bunch of different disparate systems that they had kind of talking to each other, mostly not talking to each other, like humans were the integration between those tools and they realized for an organization that collects food that would otherwise be wasted from you know, a restaurant or event or catering and then just, you know, has kind of almost real time volunteers who can pick it up and take it to other distribution centers, whether that's a community center Food Pantry, you know, depending on what the food It is and they needed better tools so that that kind of real time activation could be more successful and more effective. And as they build, you know, a better volunteer, like scheduling tool and a better way for restaurants to say, oh, tonight we're going to have a bunch of food, you know

Julia Campbell  20:19  

For sometimes they don't know, you're right. They can't plan it a week ahead of time.

Amy Sample Ward  20:23  

 Right, totally. And so in the process of building tools that they just needed to have, they actually were technology creators, right. And I think there's so many nonprofits who think like, oh, we couldn't create technology, we're not technologists, right? Like, like a fool was saying before, you don't have to have a degree to have built a web tool at your organization, because you needed it for a campaign or something, right. And they slowly started realizing, Oh, we actually are building technology here. And what these tools are doing is something that doesn't just work for us in New York for these three restaurants. This is something that could work all over. And as they embraced the we're creating technology here, we're really creating a platform, it allowed them as an organization to make more strategic decisions about the technology and about staffing. And then to scale to other states and other cities, and make their impact really expand. But it all took them realizing, Oh, we are creating technology. We're really creating this tool intentionally versus everything's reactive. Everything is like Oh, volunteers said they need this, we'll just answer that one request. Right? They had to create a whole tracking system to say volunteers suggested these ideas and restaurants have suggested these ideas, and how do we, you know, really create a roadmap that's visible to all of those groups and build this with intention? And I'm excited for more nonprofits to read that story and others in the book, and realize how much tech they're creating in their own organizations of who what would what story do you want to share?

Afua Bruce  22:02  

Thanks. I love the rescuing leftover cuisine example for so many reasons that you doubt to me. Another example, in the book that I really enjoy is the story of John Jay College, which is an institution in New York. And it has a diversity of students. It's large. And when John Jay College started the process that we talked about in the book, they noticed that they had a lot of tools and support systems built in to make sure that people finish their freshman year, and could start their sophomore year, that critical first year, but they didn't have a lot of tools to make sure that people necessarily finished graduating, and specifically, John Jay, college staff notice that they had a number of students who were completing three quarters of the credits they need to graduate, but then not graduating. And so they started to ask well, why is that if they've completed three quarters of the credits, they need to graduate, they clearly know how to study, they know how to take tests, they know how to show up in the classroom, they know how to register for classes, what is going on here. And so they partnered with data kind, which is a nonprofit that does data science and AI in service of humanity. So provides these data science and AI services to nonprofits and government agencies all around the world. And they started to have a conversation, what is going on here? Can you help us John Jay College being an academic institution had 20 years of data on students that they'd been collecting and holding. And so the data scientists were able to take that information, run a number of models, I think they tested something like two dozen models and ultimately create a tool that could identify and predict which students were at risk of dropping out after completing the three quarters of credits needed to graduate. The tool then recommended some possible interventions and the John Jay, college staff then could make the decision as to which intervention would actually be used and to actually implement that. After two years of using this tool, John Jay, college credits additional 900 Students with graduating. And so when you think about the impact that has on people's lives, and livelihoods and families, it's pretty impressive. And I love this example for a number of reasons. One is, in talking with the John Jay College staff, it's clear how they two went through this evolution. I think oftentimes people think, you know, if I'm not a technologist, I can't talk to the technology people. I can't tell them what my problems are. I don't know how to communicate to them. But John Jay College recognized that doing the work, they were the subject matter experts, and they could articulate what they wanted to see happen, even if they didn't know the technical terms needed. And so the data scientists, they're being data scientist trained for working in the social impact sector, took the time to listen to understand, react and to really design something driven by in this case, the community of folks at John Jay College. I think another example. Another point that's really important is that even though the data science was Dun and data science is one of the the flashy terms of the day, this process worked ultimately because of the strong input from John Jay College. But also because John Jay, college staff have the ultimate control and authority. And so really recognizing, again, the importance of making sure that technology is in service of people, it is a tool. And so really strengthening that partnership, and really continuing to empower the John Jay College staff. And then of course, ultimately, 900 students more graduated, I think the success is the 900 students who graduated, it's not the fact that there was a fancy data science model Build, it's not this overall process, but at the end of the day, right, we're about those outcomes, we're about that creating that equitable world. And so getting to see John Jay College, go through that process, and really get there and have that ultimate impact that's in service of their mission, think is pretty powerful.

Julia Campbell  25:52  

Both of those examples are fantastic, because they share the ways in which technology can help achieve the mission. I think when nonprofits or social impact organizations, think about technology, even funders, even technologists, communities, they think of marketing, or social media or a database or email, they're not thinking about the ways in which that you can actually help make the work and the programs more efficient, and more effective and eliminate kind of duplication of work. So I think that's so important.

Amy Sample Ward  26:28  

And so much of that, too, so much of that, like building up the capacity for technology is also all of those people, right? The folks in that office at John Jay College, who were then really comfortable and capable and confident using that tool to say, okay, how can we make program decisions? How can we create student supports and interventions, right, versus the technology project started and stopped with the implementation of the AI project, right, like technology is all of it is also how we use it and how we can make decisions with it not just, quote unquote, the tool part?

Julia Campbell  27:11  

 Well, I'd love to continue with that, because I want to touch on two things that are huge points, takeaways from the book, one is creating a culture that embraces technology. And the other is the active participation of the clients that the social impact organizations hope to serve. And the majority, I think of my listeners are social impact organizations. But what are some steps we can take to create a culture that embraces technology? Amy, do you want to start?

Amy Sample Ward  27:40  

Totally, you know, there are so many different things that you can do, but a couple to try and give a few tactical things folks can look into right away. One is recognizing that it is 2022. It is a world in which it is not far fetched to realize that everyone on your team is using technology. So if you go and you look at your job descriptions for your team, and only the IT manager has technology written in their job description, well, it doesn't seem like you're living in reality, right? So every single job description should talk about the technology that that role uses the technology that that role needs to be trained on the technology related decisions that that role has the purview over the budget for technology that that team or that person manages, right, the more we can articulate that for each staff person, the more we are able to create as a whole organization opportunities for folks to advocate for the training that they want, and be able to justify that in a real way to better see where our technology budgets are. Because let me tell you, they're not one person buying five things a year, right? There inevitably spread across your organization. And the more you can understand that, the better. And along with that is we've seen it and 10 how few organizations talk about technology strategically, one of the highest correlated practices with being kind of a an effective technology organization, regardless of your budget size, regardless of your staff size, regardless of mission, location, anything is an organization including technology and their strategic plan. If at the highest level of the way you talk about your vision and where your organization is going and the strategic work you're doing, if you can, in that same document, talk about the technology investments that are necessary to get there. Oh my gosh, I mean, you've really set yourself up to be able to articulate to every staff person, you know why those technology investments were good for them or what part in those projects they are going to play. You are setting yourself up to talk to funders strategically about technology investment, right? You Have routed it and the most important document your organization likely has. But so few organizations do this, I think, because again, they're not thinking that technology is connected to the mission. They're thinking of technology as something separate in the quote unquote, back office, that they're trying to have to manage and minimize how much they spend on right. Instead of saying, this is central to us being able to achieve our mission. This is central to us delivering programs in a pandemic, right, like this is central. So we should be able to talk about it that way.

Julia Campbell  30:30  

Yes, I'm giving snaps. That's incredible. I love that food. Do you want? Do you have anything to add to that?

Afua Bruce  30:38  

There's not much more to add. I think the underlying point, right is that technology is central to the missions of social impact organizations today, you have to recognize that technology isn't competing with your mission, it isn't competing with your effectiveness, you need to make sure that you can think about how technology can really be used to advance your mission. Because it's so critical to organizations today. I think the other piece that's critical and gets to the second question that you raised is the part about being community driven, and really making sure that as a social impact organization or as a technologist or as a policymaker, or as a funder investor, we're really thinking about what does the community want? I think sometimes in the social impact space, it can be tempting, I would say some folks find it tempting to define the needs for the communities they serve the find the needs to find the problems to find the priorities for the communities, they serve for the communities, they are working in partnership, but we have to make sure that we are taking the time to really ask communities for their input as communities to articulate their needs, which they often know so well, and then let that drive the rest of the process. And so to do that, I think some practical ways to do that are one just having time built into all of your timescales, and timelines to make sure that you are taking the time to talk with your community, and not just at the start, which is very important, but throughout the design process throughout the development process throughout the deployment process. It's all incredibly important. In the book, we end each chapter with a list of 25 questions, actually, to help you get started with these conversations. If you're saying, I don't know how to talk to community members, or how might I, as a technologist, ask community members for what they want? Or what types of questions should I be asking of the community members as a social impact organization take a look at those questions. But it's incredibly important in the rescuing leftover cuisine example that Amy walked through earlier. One of the reasons why that was so successful is because they were really intentional about bringing the community in to their development process, the tool that they developed in use to track request and to track new features was accessible not just to the IT person on staff, but to multiple people within the social impact organization, but also to the volunteers and to community members. And so making sure that you can be transparent and what's being prioritized what's not being prioritized letting people add in request and more as you're thinking about what does it mean to design this technology that's going to be able to extend your organization's mission is is incredibly important.

Julia Campbell  33:17  

Perfect. What a great note to end on. I'm sure we could talk for hours about this. It's just a phenomenal book. The website is the tech that comes next.com. But where else can people find you? Amy? Let's start with you.

Amy Sample Ward  33:34  

Yeah, Twitter is easy @amyrsward. That's super easy. And truly if you want to email anytime you can contact us through the techthatcomesnext.com website or amy@nten.org. truly happy to share resources or get you connected to whatever can help you be successful.

Julia Campbell  33:52  

All right, Afua where can people find you?

Afua Bruce  33:54  

Absolutely. Twitter is the best space for me as well. I'm @afua_bruce, on Twitter. As Amy said, please reach out to us through our website. If you'd like to contact me directly via email. It's hello@afuabruce.com.

Julia Campbell  34:08  

Okay, using tech to continue the conversation sounds about right. Thank you both so much for being here. And everyone. Check out the tech that comes next. And let us know what you think on Twitter. Thanks so much, Amy. And thank you. Thanks, Julia. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn