The Nonprofit Social Media Summit is back and better than ever! This year the Summit is all virtual and coming directly to your screens on November 2nd and 3rd, speakers include Amy Sample Ward, Afua Bruce, Lisa Mae Brunson. And of course yours truly, and many more. We're covering everything from TikTok to time management, Facebook ads to influencer marketing and more. Get your free ticket at nonprofitssocialmediasummit.com. And I'll see you there.
Fundraisers are scared of more than Halloween right now, with stock market downturns, inflation, rising interest rates, and an election on the horizon.
Amidst all of this unpredictability, what can fundraisers do to ensure that we reach our goals and fuel our missions?
On this episode of Nonprofit Nation, I sit down with the legendary Tammy Zonker. Recognized as one of America's Top 20 Fundraising Experts, Tammy is an inspiring international speaker and trainer in the discipline of transformational philanthropy. She has trained, coached and led nonprofit teams to raise more than half-billion dollars including a single gift of $27.1M.
Tammy moved to Detroit in 2008 motivated to fund raise in the most challenging economy in the U.S. and she turned those experiences into fundraising strategies, tools and processes for creating breakthrough fundraising results in any economy.
Connect with Tammy:
About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:
Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.
She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.
Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age. 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts
Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts
The Nonprofit Social Media Summit is back and better than ever! This year the Summit is all virtual and coming directly to your screens on November 2nd and 3rd, speakers include Amy Sample Ward, Afua Bruce, Lisa Mae Brunson. And of course yours truly, and many more. We're covering everything from TikTok to time management, Facebook ads to influencer marketing and more. Get your free ticket at nonprofitssocialmediasummit.com. And I'll see you there.
Fundraisers are scared of more than Halloween right now, with stock market downturns, inflation, rising interest rates, and an election on the horizon.
Amidst all of this unpredictability, what can fundraisers do to ensure that we reach our goals and fuel our missions?
On this episode of Nonprofit Nation, I sit down with the legendary Tammy Zonker. Recognized as one of America's Top 20 Fundraising Experts, Tammy is an inspiring international speaker and trainer in the discipline of transformational philanthropy. She has trained, coached and led nonprofit teams to raise more than half-billion dollars including a single gift of $27.1M.
Tammy moved to Detroit in 2008 motivated to fund raise in the most challenging economy in the U.S. and she turned those experiences into fundraising strategies, tools and processes for creating breakthrough fundraising results in any economy.
Connect with Tammy:
About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:
Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.
She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.
Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age. 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts
Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts
Julia Campbell 0:00
The Nonprofits Social Media Summit is back and better than ever. This year. The summit is all virtual and coming directly to your screens on November 2nd and 3rd, speakers include Amy Sample Ward, Afua Bruce, Lisa Mae Brunson. And of course yours truly, and many more. We're covering everything from tik tok to time management, Facebook ads to influencer marketing, get your free ticket at nonprofitssocialmediasummit.com. And I'll see you there.
Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started.
Julia Campbell 1:21
Hello, everyone, welcome back to nonprofit nation, thrilled to have you here and to be in your earbuds or in your car wherever you're listening. I am Julia Campbell, and I'm your host, and today we're going to talk about becoming an intentional fundraiser. And I have a world renowned fundraising expert, Tammy Zonker. She's recognized as one of America's top 20 fundraising experts. But she's also an inspiring international speaker and trainer in the discipline of transformational philanthropy, and I can't wait to talk about that. She's trained, coached and led nonprofit teams to raise more than half a billion dollars, including a single gift of $27.1 million. We'll definitely get into that. Tammy moved to Detroit in 2008. Motivated to fundraise in the most challenging economy in the US. And she turned those experiences into fundraising strategies, tools and processes for creating breakthrough fundraising results in any economy, something we can definitely use right now. And I've been fortunate enough to see Tammy speak. And I know she's a very masterful storyteller. She's a certified FP master trainer. She's absolutely fantastic. And her favorite storyteller is also from Detroit. And we're going to talk about that in a little bit. So we'll just kind of leave you waiting to see who that is. So, Tammy, welcome to the podcast.
Tammy Zonker 2:54
Thank you, Julia. I am so excited to be here with you.
Julia Campbell 2:58
It has been a long time coming and I think did we first meet at AFP. In San Antonio, is that where we first met in person?
Tammy Zonker 3:09
It was the last AFP pre the in person pre pandemic was that San Antonio,
Julia Campbell 3:15
I think it was San Antonio, it's so hard to remember pre pandemic times. But I was so thrilled to meet you and see you speak. So how did you become so passionate about fundraising? How did how'd you get into this work?
Tammy Zonker 3:29
Well, I started my career in the for profit sector, in consultative sales in like the IBM dealer network world. And as a practice director there, they put me through the Stephen Covey Seven Habits of Highly Effective People course.
Julia Campbell 3:46
Oh, I love that. I love that book.
Tammy Zonker 3:48
And so in the class on the very last day, Friday morning, the assignment is visualize your 80th birthday party. So essentially, who's there? What are they acknowledging you for? It's kind of a legacy question. And so what I realized in that exercise was that other than my family and my faith, my volunteer work with domestic violence organizations and children's organizations was really one of the most meaningful, purposeful pieces of my life. So I'm like, light bulb, I knew this is what I need to do. And it felt like, given my strength in relationship based sales, that fundraising would be a pretty easy transition and a pretty natural fit. So that's how I came to this work. And that's been like 20 years ago.
Julia Campbell 4:41
And tell us about a single gift of $27.1 million dollars.
Tammy Zonker 4:48
Okay, so the single gift of 27.1 and thank you for acknowledging the point one,
Julia Campbell 4:53
yes. Oh my gosh, every dollar counts.
Tammy Zonker 4:56
Yes, it does. So that was good. So it was 2010. That was the year that I became an empty nester. And I was working and living in northeastern Indiana, my last, my last baby went off to college. You know, I thought, if I were really going to test my fundraising skills, like, Where would I go? What would I do? And I thought Detroit, I mean, Detroit at the time, there were goodness, two of the three big automakers. So the biggest employers were in bankruptcy, unemployment was 30%. And I thought, Well, gosh, if I can fundraise there, I'll fundraise anywhere. You know, like, it'll teach me so much. So I jumped into Detroit, as a sandbox, got a little loft, packed up my little dogs, and worked there Monday through Friday. So I was on contract with the United Way for southeastern Michigan. And it was to help them do some turnaround work to transition from kind of, you know, a little bit of strong arming, giving, like here's the payroll deduction form, to more relationship based fundraising from obligatory giving, to inspire to be more being more moved by storytelling. And so I was working with the team, I actually took on a contract position as their, like, Senior Director of Corporate Relations. So I was managing a team and a small portfolio of my own corporate accounts. So fast forward. I was there for two and a half years. And prior to me coming that board had taken on a pretty big, hairy audacious goal, a Jim Collins inspired Good to Great goal of making Detroit a top five city to live and work by the year 2023. And it was a lot to do around high school graduation rates, which were, on average, about 30%. In public schools, helping children show up to kindergarten meeting ready to learn standards, meaning they can write their name, they can count, they know that a book orientation opens from the right and the pages turned to the left, like basic things. And then food security issues, getting access to healthy foods, and helping families become banked and financially literate. So we took that agenda into a meeting with the North American president of General Motors, who at the time was Mark Royce. And so just want to emphasize that the CEO was president, the CEO of the United Way, as well as the volunteer campaign cabinet leader. So all that to say major gifts, transformational gifts don't happen without peer to peer engagement. So the three of us, we went in, we sat down in the office, in fact, the volunteer Jeff Bergeron, who was the managing partner of Ernst and Young, he got the appointment, we walked into Mark's office, we sat down, niceties were exchanged. And then we made our case about meeting, their strategy, his thought leadership in this transformational work that we were taking on. And you know, his first what he said to us first was I love what you're doing. But you know, we are not in a position to give you any money. We are in bankruptcy, we're laying people off, it's really difficult. And we said, we know, a while we appreciate the employee campaigns and the corporate gifts that you've given in the past. We're not here to talk about that. We're here to really talk about this transformational leadership, this change that we're wanting to create in our community, the same kind of transformation you and your leadership team are making at GM. We want to do that across the city of Detroit. And we need your thought leadership in that space. And so in a great and amazing conversation ensued. And so the one ask in that meeting was not for money. It was come to our offices and take a tour. So about six weeks later, he came on a tour. And of course, we have total boring office at the United Way. Right? All the work happens in the community. But we did have the 211 hotline, where calls for basic needs are coming in, around the clock. And so he signed a little nondisclosure. He sat down, he listened in on some calls, and he really got a sense for the heartbreaking need in the community. We then took him into kind of our war room, we gave him an update on our high school turnarounds. He asked tough questions and some of them that we couldn't answer and would talk about what's working, what's broken in our approach to this transformational turnaround work. And what we knew we didn't know yet. And it was interesting, Julia because the more vulnerable and transparent we became, the more vulnerable and transparent he He became, he said, you know, a GM we've we've lost our soul. We've forgotten who we are. And we're going to turn this around, we're going to make it up to Detroit to Michigan to this country. And the one asked him again at that meeting was not for money. It was come to one of those schools that we're talking about. We're we're working to do this turnaround work. And he said, Okay, I'll come to your school. But I would like to know, what would it take to turn around five more schools because we had piloted this turnaround in five schools funded by the Kresge Foundation than the Skillman foundation and some really Trent, like really visionary and generous foundations. And so we said, Okay, we'll prepare a proposal, we set a date, we toured him on the school again, that by this time, it was mid September, took him on the tour, he walked through the same metal detectors that Detroit kids walk through every day, when they walk into it, it was amazing. We had four principals tell their story of why they do this work, why they're giving their kids, their school kids, their personal cell phones, why they are on call to help these kids at the drop of a hat. And then we had four students come in and tell their stories. And I am telling you, Julia, there was not a dry eye in the room. Kids were extraordinary and resilient, and tenacious and inspiring. And there was especially one young student, her name was destiny. And she could not have been more than five foot tall. So but she was so powerful. And she told her story. And it just really resonated. So then the kids left the principal's left. And I had the privilege of walking mark through our proposal to turn around five more schools, and to talk about how we can engage GM employees in volunteerism in that work, as well as their retiree corps. We've got 1000s of retirees yet with amazing skills. So walking through the proposal line by line by line. And then, of course, as appropriate, the CEO Michael Brennan popped the question, he said, so we're asking you to make a $27.1 million investment in our work turning around education in the city of Detroit. And then of course, there was silence. Because Mark is processing like, how could this how could we make this happen? How could this be something we could say yes to? So he's nodding, and he's nodding. And finally he pushes his chair back from the table? And he says, yes, let's do this. I have no idea how we're going to do this. But we're gonna make it happen. And then there was more silence, because we had never rehearsed what to say when he said, Yes. So I said, Thank you. Like, this is a day we'll never forget. So again, fast forward time leap into, right after Thanksgiving. General Motors went back on the New York Stock Exchange, they withdrew from their bankruptcy status. And we held a press conference at the same school, he had toured, where he and destiny announced that $27.1 million dollar gift, and the General Motors investment in Detroit public schools through the United Way, so that was how that gift came to be. And it was actually fulfilled through the GM foundation over the course of five years. And they actually took on seven schools, and graduation rates increased by on average by 40%. So they're in the, you know, high 70s, low 80s, on graduation rates. I mean, it really truly was a transformational gift.
Julia Campbell 13:50
I love that it was about vision and partnership and leadership. And that was how it was sold or explained to him. Because obviously, if you say okay, it's gonna buy this many pencils, and this money this and do this, and this and this, it's not nearly as transformational, it doesn't seem as transformational as saying, we are going to increase the graduation rate, like we are going to actually transform all of these schools, and put Detroit back on the map, and create a better future for all of these students and their families. I mean, that's just phenomenal. And I think it leads me to my next question, which would be I mean, you say that this really helps you understand how to best fundraise in any economy. And as we know, as of this recording, you know, the inflation rate is 9%. The economy I mean, it's spiraling. We're not sure I'm not an economist, but we do know that there are there's a lot of pain right now. A lot of businesses are experiencing this pain and people and families. So how can we find fundraise with all of this uncertainty and in this economic climate, what are some tips you would you would give to people give to fundraisers out there?
Tammy Zonker 15:08
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know that corporations, especially those that are public ly held, they are definitely accountable to shareholders. And there are, there are definitely restrictions for most companies public or private, in terms of how much they are going to give percentage of the bottom line, like the net profit each year. And as we approach, you know, a challenging economy or potentially, they're forecasting a potential recession, people are trying to like, okay, let's batten down the hatches, let's prepare for what could be very challenging, and to some degree, is challenging, even now, with inflation and all the things that you mentioned. Even the workforce shortages, you know, that's creating a bottleneck and impacting revenue as well. But when we look at so that's that we just have to face that reality. But when we look at individuals, individuals have a lot more discretion in their giving, right, because essentially, we are emotional donors looking for rational reasons to justify are basically emotional decisions to give. So our connection to the mission, and that's why, especially as we move into tough times, really all the time, but especially in in scary times like this, we have to focus on the story. How lives are changed, because as Gerald Panis legendary fundraiser always said people give to save lives and change lives. So we have to tell the story and to your earlier point, we have to cache on a compelling vision. Again, I'll reference back to Jim Collins in Good to Great the book, amazing book he authored, is that we have to have the courage to cast big, hairy, audacious goals, even in the face of logic and reason.
Julia Campbell 17:04
I love the hags.
Tammy Zonker 17:06
I love the hags, too. Yes.
Julia Campbell 17:08
I talked to my clients about that. I forgot who coined that term. That's Jim Collins. That's Jim Collins. Okay, oh, that book is so phenomenal. So speaking of coining terms, you coined the term story living, and I'd love for you to tell me about story living, and how nonprofits can adapt it and use it in their fundraising.
Tammy Zonker 17:28
Absolutely. So we're all very familiar with the powerful impact of storytelling, we do have to also be cautious that storytelling is not just a monologue, right? So me, it can happen a lot. Like we're the storytellers. And we will regale our donors or probable donors with these stories will inspire them, maybe move them to tears fill their heart with joy, you know, because of the transformation that was created, thanks to their generous gifts, and the gifts of others. But again, it's us telling, and then listening. And so I coined the phrase and the process that I call story living, because is inviting the donor to be part of the story. In fact, I think it was Mark Phillips out of the UK, who says they are not your donors. You are their charity, or their
Julia Campbell 18:29
nonprofit, absolute favorite quotes. It is Mark Phillips,
Tammy Zonker 18:33
yes, yes, I love his work. And so story living is about putting yourself in the shoes of the donor, and crafting an experience around them that they actually live. So those kinds of transformational experiences. So I work with an organization that does some international relief, and they will invite supporters over, over the US Thanksgiving, to go with them to Belize to build houses, right. And they're paying their own airfare and lodging, right, but they have the experience of helping build houses and seeing that family open the door and walk in. Maybe it's something more local, like tutoring a child or during the holidays, doing like a holiday book reading with children or youth or serving Thanksgiving dinner at that shelter for people who are living without homes. Certainly taking Mark Royce to a Detroit inner cities high school and having him experience that. Oh, walking through the metal detectors. Exactly having his bag searched just like every backpack gets searched. Letting him sit in a library with virtually no books and hearing for students tell their stories. I mean, that story living and although it can sound a little bit crass indulge me, but I liken it to what I call the Three lines, you know, at the end of your life in your obituary, there are essentially three lines. There's who you left behind those that you loved and who love you. There's what you did for a living your profession. And then there's your cause your purpose, who you devoted your volunteerism to, or your philanthropy to your charitable giving. And we're aiming to be through this story living experience. We're aiming to be
Julia Campbell 20:28
the third line. That's really powerful. That is incredibly powerful. What is your legacy? What are you leaving behind? And sort of? What do you want to be known for? What do you want to be remembered for? So tell me about your favorite storyteller. And why I read this in I must have read this in a blog post on the Chronicle of Philanthropy. But I thought it was really interesting.
Tammy Zonker 20:52
So my favorite storyteller is Eminem, Marshall Mathers, Detroit city. And so the reason that I love him is that he is so passionate, and authentic. You know, as storytellers, especially in the fundraising, the nonprofit sector, we are often so tempted to put on kid gloves, and to sugarcoat things and make them nice. And well, I definitely am a big believer in ethical storytelling, and honoring the person whose story we're telling. And making certain consent is more than just a permission slip, right? That they are completely aligned with the authenticity and feel empowered in sharing the story. But Eminem does not sugarcoat it. Like he tells the truth. And he tells the beginning how hard things were. He talks about the work, what it takes step by step and set back and pick yourself up and keep going and don't give up and be tenacious. And then he tells that better place they're in, it may not be the happiest ending, there may still be work to do. But he's tells about the progress in such an authentic way. And that's why I love him.
Julia Campbell 22:15
Yeah, it's interesting that Eminem is actually coming back into popularity, because I think of tick tock because my daughter who was 12, she knows who he is. And she listens to him. And I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, I don't think I last listen to Eminem. I mean, it was probably in college or after college. But I think it just speaks to how his songs are kind of timeless and evergreen. And like you said, the stories that he tells that are hard to listen to are, you know, they're, they're impacting people, even years and years later. So that's the, I think that's a quality of a great storyteller. So, while I have you here, I want to talk about something that I see with the majority of my clients, my students, people that listen to my sessions, and my speaking, you know, you speak about the ways that fundraisers can be more intentional. And my mantra is really to get nonprofit fundraisers, marketers, all professionals to be more proactive and less reactive, especially coming on the heels of the pandemic. But for a lot of, you know, my listeners, the constant barrage of email and internal meetings and zoom calls, and to do lists can derail many of these great plans. So how can we get organized? What are some tips that you have for getting organized, stopping this overwhelm and being able to focus on these sort of bigger picture? Visionary Leadership skills?
Tammy Zonker 23:47
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a great question. And I encountered this with my clients as well. Like, there's just so much. And again, it's kind of like that forest and the and the trees analogy. So I've been there. So when I was serving as chief philanthropy officer at the Children's Center in Detroit, and I, you know, I served in that role for nine years. We tripled fundraising in the first three years, and we doubled it again, by the time I left, and there was a lot completely overwhelmed, confronted oftentimes, and, you know, I would get into the office around seven in the morning, and I would leave around five or 530 Mostly because I had to walk go home and walk my dogs. But like so many of us, and certainly I'm sure nonprofit nation listeners between seven and 530 I was in back to back meetings and inundated with emails and texts and voicemail and eating lunch over my computer keyboard or, or maybe worse, like over my steering wheel on the my way to a donor visit, right with a like a lobster bib on just in case.
Julia Campbell 24:56
Right or changing. I used to have changes of clothes in my office.
Tammy Zonker 25:00
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then of course, there's the unplanned like Knock Knock, knock, do you have five minutes? Oh, gosh, oh my lord, I remember that. And we want to make time for people. But those are can be very distracting. So that's the life. That's the life well, so many of us lead. So what I found at that point in my life was that at the end of the day, I would literally pick up my big tote bag. And I would say to myself, thank God, it's five o'clock now I can go home and get some work done. Right. Interesting. Yeah. So you know, the truth is, and we see it in the turnover rates, that lifestyle is not sustainable. So we turn over, then we go looking for greener grass and some other pasture. So having had that experience, and then transitioning to be full time, in my consultancy, I created a system called the intentional fundraiser. And it was the result of that experience, followed by consuming amazing content from all the great the greatest business strategists and high performance experts. And here's what I came up with. So I feel like the keys to getting intentional and stopping or at least significantly minimizing the overwhelm. Number one, getting role clarity. So we're a talented, very resourceful lot of people. So but there are, there are things we can do. And then there are things we should do. And so getting clarity about what are the things that I should be doing that I bring a unique skill set a zone of genius, a specific, unique value to those should be my priorities. And so then identify and focus on my top three to five priorities each month, each week, each day. And if you're doing this as an organization, then also tying that to quarterly, and yearly goals for the for the department or the organization, and then even three year and five year goals. But even if you're just like, Okay, I'm just trying to make it for me, Tammy, then do this for you individual fundraisers. So getting role clarity, focusing on your top three to five priorities each month, week, every day, like literally, boom, when I closed down for the end of the day, I'll write down like, what are the three most important things I need to do to starting tomorrow morning?
Julia Campbell 27:28
Do you have the full focus planner by Michael Hyatt?
Tammy Zonker 27:31
I do like his planner. Yes.
Julia Campbell 27:34
I have been listening to his podcast. And I think it's phenomenal. But that just reminded me because it's all about the top three, the daily three, the weekly three, the monthly free, which I think is a great, it's a very great system. But tell me about your fundraising transformers community? Do you talk about these kinds of strategies in that community?
Tammy Zonker 27:54
We do. So fundraising transformers is a it is a community a subscription or membership community. And there are presently we've rolled out two levels. One is a paid subscription where you get full access to on demand and, and the other is the that's called the growth level membership. And then the entry point is called the mentor membership, which is totally free. And you don't get access to the live trainings, but you get access to the recordings of the trainings for 72 hours after the live has happened. So we focus on everything from a major gift strategy, how to engage your board in fundraising, how to be a high performance fundraiser yourself, monthly giving programs, the training topic, we do training, and coaching sessions every single month. And July is training session was on we're at the six month mark, we're halfway through the calendar year. What are the things the strategies we need to employ to make certain we finish this year strong, that we hit our goals and that we are vibrant and not not killing ourselves? Next month, August topic is on creating a compelling and urgent case for support.
Julia Campbell 29:10
And I know you get I see on the website. When you join, you'll get access to all the trainings if you do the subscription model. I think that's fantastic.
Tammy Zonker 29:19
That's amazing. Two and a half years worth of on demand classes out there just waiting for folks.
Julia Campbell 29:24
Well, that brings me to my last question, Where can people find out more about you connect with you and find out about this amazing community?
Tammy Zonker 29:33
Well, thank you for asking that question. They can check out my website fundraising transformed.com where they can sign up for my free newsletter, The my intentional fundraiser podcast, which Julia you'll be a guest here in the coming weeks, or they can check out that fundraising transformer community and really all of the services that we provide. I mean, our intention, our goal is to help to really equip it and empower Fundraising Professionals, board members, CEOs to really transform their fundraising so they can transform the world.
Julia Campbell 30:08
I love that. Well, thank you so much, Tammy for being on nonprofit niche and I look forward to being on the intentional fundraiser.
Tammy Zonker 30:16
Thank you. What a pleasure.
Julia Campbell 30:24
Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. Keep changing the world your nonprofit unicorn