The Right Way to Tell a Fundraising Story with Vanessa Chase Lockshin

Believe it or not, there's a right way to tell a fundraising story. And by fundraising story, I mean a story that you're using to raise money for your non-profit.

A fundraising story needs the right story structure to connect with the audience, demonstrate need, and invite the audience to get involved by making a donation.

Individual donors can give with shocking levels of generosity when they’re deeply moved by stories. That’s just what your organization needs in order to grow!

But chances are, you didn’t get your job because you’re already a storytelling expert. In fact, you may struggle to find stories you think your donors would find interesting.

You might not be at all confident that you can write them well. The good news? You can change all that.

My guest this week is Vanessa Chase Lockshin, a consultant specializing in non-profit storytelling, fundraising and communications, author of The Storytelling Non-Profit: A practical guide to telling stories that raise money and awareness, and the creator of immersive online training programs for non-profit professionals. Vanessa is an award-winning entrepreneur, avid reader, and resident of Victoria, Canada.
 
Connect with Vanessa:

• Twitter:  @vanessaechase
• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessaechase/
• Website: https://www.thestorytellingnonprofit.com/  

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass,  3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

Julia Campbell  0:00  

Hello, my nonprofit unicorns real quick. If this podcast has helped you at all in the past year, can you do me a favor and leave a rating and a review. This helps the almighty algorithms determine that my podcast is worth showing to new people. I appreciate it. And I appreciate you now on with today's show. Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.

Julia Campbell  1:14  

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Thanks so much, again, for being here with me today. And today's episode is one of my favorite topics. It's storytelling, and we're going to discuss the right way to tell a fundraising story. And you'd be surprised there is absolutely a right way to structure it. And my guest today is a storytelling expert Vanessa Chase Lockshin, a consultant specializing in nonprofit storytelling, fundraising and communications, she's the author of the storytelling nonprofit, A Practical Guide to telling stories that raise money and awareness, I will put it in the show notes, and the creator of immersive online training programs for Nonprofit Professionals. Vanessa is an award winning entrepreneur and avid reader and resident of Victoria, Canada, and also working mom, we just talked about that. So Vanessa, how did you get started in this work? I've been following you for years and years and years. I'm sure a lot of my listeners are familiar with your work. But how did you get started in fundraising? And then what led you to the focus on storytelling?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  2:23  

What a good question. I mean, how did any of us get started in fundraising? Like I fell into it probably like 50% of us in some ways, I got started in professional fundraising right out of college, I got a job in my university advancement office working in the annual giving program there. And I was really fortunate to work under some truly incredible professionals who were just the top of their game and direct response fundraising, and really learned a lot from them about what it looks like to run a great Annual Giving Program. And I wasn't really sure at the time what I was going to do career wise, but I loved the creativity that is in fundraising. And I know not everybody sees that or appreciates that about it. But I think especially in copywriting there's just a lot of things about that, that like really get my creative juices flowing. A lot of problems to sink my teeth into. And I think in terms of the storytelling piece, I mean, I worked in house to two different organizations early on in my career. And I think I just really early on understood the value of what really good direct response copywriting looked like. It tells a story on two levels. There's the narrative about the problem about what's going on. But there's also the vignette story about someone or something that people can really connect to. And I think really seeing the differences between really great coffee and really bad coffee just became like a clear to me about how powerful the words you are you use to talk about your cause and what you're raising money for, can be and it made me a real word nerd in my career. So wanting to really understand how I could best talk about causes and help them really represent themselves in the best way possible to donors.

Julia Campbell  4:15  

And in your blog, you write a lot just not just about the importance of storytelling. It's a lot about tactics and tips and advice for nonprofits as they're trying to navigate how to gather stories, how to collect stories, how to write stories. So you write a lot about storytelling and story structure. So just for my audience, you know, why do nonprofits need a structure to their stories? And the second piece of that question is, how can we really ensure that our structure is not like cookie cutter, you know, that it's defined for our unique message and mission?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  4:54  

Yeah, I think those are really good questions. I mean, to me, I think that I always think about fun embracing copywriting as being this like really wonky genre, right? Like it's such a different type of nonfiction writing. It's different than how businesses write brochures for customers. It's very different from like fiction writing and fiction storytelling. And I think the value and having a structure like I would say, like loosely defined structure that you can follow to hit really key points in your storytelling is that you're able to better get your message across and really build the compelling argument for giving. To me, I always think about it as the difference between just, you know, like, I think like a compelling, quote, or testimonial about somebody who's benefited from the work like a great one or two line sentence, and an actual journey that you can take people on to show them why that quote is so important and contextualizing that, does that make sense?

Julia Campbell  5:53  

I think what we struggle with is we want to demonstrate need, and I always talk to my audience about focusing on the problem and the why, and the vision and what you're trying to solve. And I wonder if you have any insight into how we can do this, like how we can demonstrate need, but how we can do it ethically. And like I know, you said words matter and your word nerd, and language matters so much in this context. So how can we do this, we can stay true to our mission, and we can demonstrate need and show that there's a problem. But how can we do it ethically?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  6:32  

Yeah, I think one of the things that I often think about in this is, you know, in fundraising appeals, there needs to be some stakes for the problem, right? For it to be compelling. You know, like, you can plainly tell somebody what the problem is, but you kind of have to contextualize why the problem is a problem, essentially. So you know, like, why does it matter that like, you have a waitlist for this program or service? Why does it matter that there's such a high demand for something that your organization is doing? Like answering that is a key part of it? And I think with the stakes of it, there's a million ways to position the stakes. And I think that's where you can kind of get into this question of like, are we positioning this in an ethical way? Like, are we really representing the problem in a way that feels factual, yet compelling? And to me, like, the bottom line of all my writing is like, it needs to be reflective of reality. There's, there's no point in making things more dramatic than they actually are. If that's not really true, like if somebody a donor comes back to you and says, like, tell me more about this, like what's happening, like, you need to be able to factually respond to that and be like, oh, yeah, here's the proof of why, like, why we said these things like, I think that there's an ethics and that that's, that's incredibly important. Overdue, I think in terms of like, positioning that for your organization. You know, I think, to me, that's a lot about like, looking around the landscape of what's happening right now, whenever I write fundraising emails, and in particular, I always think about, like, writing them as starting off with like, what's going on right now? And like introducing the problem, like I want people quickly to understand what's going on and why it matters. They need some amount of context to understand why I'm going to ask them for money.

Julia Campbell  8:15  

Like the why this why now? 

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  8:17  

Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. So that's, that's a big part of it. And, you know, I think for organizations like there's always a through line of the problems they're solving, like, on some level, that never changes much year over year, like they're still doing the same services and programs. And, and that's fine. But I think that the relevance for that in the moment of office so much, and I think we could look at like the last two years of COVID, like that deeply impacted how organizations positioned their problem and what they do. And that's going to continue to evolve. And I think that's where some of the creativity comes in. And this kind of fundraising is like just looking around and saying like, Okay, what's happening in this moment that we can, again, make this relevant for donors, even if we're going to talk to them about this for the 100th time, but give them something new to connect in with, with the cause.

Julia Campbell  9:05  

We're so worried to talk about the stakes are so worried to talk about what would happen and what would be lost if we closed our doors. And I saw that during the pandemic, I really saw people saying, Oh, we're so worried about looking desperate or looking like we can't keep our doors open or looking like we have failed. And the whole thing I think nonprofits really need to realize is, it's not a failure that you need assistance. It's not something where this problem is going to be solved in six months, or a year or even in our generation. And that's a great question, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, how do we balance that storytelling? Ask when we have a cause? That seems so like insurmountable? Maybe it's climate change? Maybe as homeless as poverty, maybe as racism, like how do we frame it in a way that makes it possible that things can be done, but also shows that need in the stakes?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  10:12  

Yeah. Well, I think going back to the question about the stakes for just a second, like, I think there are two ways you can think about stakes, like, I think there's the threat. And then there's the opportunity. And I always think about those as being two sides of the same coin. And it's like the positive versus the negative positioning of the stakes and organizations can go left or right, it doesn't necessarily make a difference. But I think it can be interesting to explore those in the development of an appeal and have a story and just think about, okay, if we frame the stakes as like, here's the opportunity of what we can do with support versus like, here's what's going to happen if we don't get support, you can kind of really see the real difference in like emotional tone and the stakes there. And I think that that can just be like a real playground for organizations to consider in a way, you know, also to not always have this like catastrophizing. Oh my god, the house is on fire message with the stakes.

Julia Campbell  11:07  

It's okay, I totally get it.

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  11:10  

Yeah. And I think I think going back to your question about like, how do we frame and position steaks with causes where there's just so much work to do? To me, that comes down to the theory of change that you have, and your reason for donating? Like, there should be some clear tangible theory of change in there. That's going to definitely show people how you can move the needle forward with a certain amount of power to people participating and donating to something like sure, you're not going to get people to donate and solve climate climate change next month, however, like, you know, if people donate to this, like, are you able to start running campaigns where you can put pressure on like key politicians or political players? Like what is the small step that you're taking towards that? I think that this is something where I often see Orion fundraising appeals is that like, it's so big and visionary, but I think like, a lot of ways we need to like funnel it down a little bit like, Sure, we can talk about that big picture context. But we also need to be really clear about what's going to happen when people donate, like, what are we doing with this? And how is this like moving the needle forward? In some very specific and small ways. And like those small ways always add up. But it's important for us to be able to show people that progress over time.

Julia Campbell  12:22  

So how do we find stories that we think our donors would find interesting

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  12:29  

I come up with they think, probably from slightly different way than some other people might I always start with thinking about the messaging and the context did the appeal first, like I don't usually start story first and then work that way. I usually think more about like, what is the problem we're talking about? What's the ask? And what is it that we're trying to, like demonstrate in this? And then I think about how can there be a story that illustrates this for people really clearly. And, to me, I always think that this part of the process is like, super collaborative, like I'm often outside of outside of the organizations that I work with, have, you know, a consultant or contractor. And so, to me, this is where I really rely on like, interpersonal relationships and conversations to talk to people about like my vision for the appeal and pick their brains a little bit about things that they've seen in the last few months in the work and say, like, you know, do you think there's somebody who would be a good representative for this? Do you think there's like an instance, within a program that would really reflect this messaging really strongly. And to me, this is about creating, like real flow throughout the appeal, like there's always going to be fantastic stories, but there's not always going to be a story that matches the message. So really finding that kind of like top down alignment within the appeal is, I think, a good way to think about that, rather than like piecemealing. In a story that might be great, but maybe like, doesn't quite make sense. What it is that your organization wants to talk about.

Julia Campbell  13:56  

We don't want to put like a round peg in a square hole, trying to shoehorn, like you said, I agree. I think it's interesting, because I tell my clients to collect a lot of different stories from everywhere they are, you know, staff stories, donors, stories, volunteer stories, clients, stories, Mission stories, community based partner stories, which stories are the most effective for fundraising? And if you have these staff and donor stories, you might not have client stories. Are those effective? Or should we really be focusing more on those impact stories?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  14:31  

Thing That depends on the type of work your organization is doing? In some ways? Like, I mean, I think for an advocacy organization, there's probably less beneficiary client stories to begin with, like just because of the nature of the work. But I think that, you know, in the like, in Marshall Ganz is organizing model, like a story of self is incredibly powerful for people to hear. And, you know, I think staff and donors can speak to that really well. And I think especially with donors, we get into the territory of social proof, which is really powerful. I think the line a lot of organizations have to find is, and I think I see this, especially with organizations who have like matching gift campaigns that it's like, it's not about, like profiling the significant major donor and lifting them up on a pedestal. But it's more about like the story of the values that drove why they decided to make this gift and why they're committing to this campaign. So less of a press release, and more about like, the story of their of their gift, so to speak. And I think my staff stories, too, you know, I've worked with a lot of women's anti violence organizations over the years where there's some real challenges and concerns around their clients confidentiality for plethora of reasons. And we really lean into staff stories to talk about, I think those instances like a lot about why the staff show up every day and do this work, like why is it so important to them, that they be there as like a counselor or a crisis line volunteer answering phones and helping women in their community? Why is that service so necessary? And like, why did they want to be able to continue to do it? I think there's just some really powerful ways in which staff and donors can speak to that in their in their own ways. And I think I also look at the landscape of funders and appeals these days. And yeah, like, a lot of them are definitely driven by client beneficiary stories, which I think are really powerful and really great. But I've certainly declined from last year who have leaned in other directions with stories that have also worked really well. I think it just takes some testing and sometimes deciding to go left when everybody else is going right, necessarily a bad idea.

Julia Campbell  16:43  

I saw some stories and COVID. That was just the Development Director, writing from the heart or an executive director, just writing about what they were seeing. And I think of some of my favorite nonprofit newsletters, I can think of this group called The Night Ministry in Chicago, and they have a newsletter. It's just the executive director, and what he sees and his perspective, so it's almost like a third party telling the story. And it just is the way that they do it. And people are used to it, and it's really effective for them. And then some other places they do tell the first person story that you know if they can get it. That's fantastic. And that kind of leads me into my next question, which is how can we, you know, both effectively and ethically involve our communities, like ask our communities to share their stories, like what are some some pitfalls and challenges we should avoid when we're doing that?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  17:38  

I mean, I think the most important one that I feel like I'm like, so conscientious about this, possibly too conscientious sometimes.

Julia Campbell  17:46  

I don't think there's anything as to conscientious. Like, yeah, it's like the representation more conscientious.

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  17:51  

Yeah, to me, the thing that is always top of mind, for me is like the representation of people in their stories. I always orient myself to them as a, you know, people are subjects of their own lives and their own stories, not subjects in the organization story. And I think about that a lot, because I want people to feel like they've had a positive and empowering like experience sharing their story. And haven't told their story only for it to become this like PR machine story, that that doesn't quite like look and feel the way they experienced it. I think this is like this the hard line, I think for a lot of organizations because they know what donors will respond to they know that like if they message something a certain way or position stories a certain way, like they might garner more response from it, like it's gonna pull the right heartstrings, but I think that that like gets into this real, like, ethical, like unethical place of, of yeah, just not really, respectfully. And I think it's a real dignified way telling people's stories. I think that to me, that's like always top of mind. But I think in terms of asking people to share their stories, you know, the other thing I always think about is that like, no one owes your organization their story.

Julia Campbell  19:04  

Absolutely. Let's say it again, no one owes your organization their story.

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  19:09  

Yeah, I have definitely. I feel like over the years in my work, like I've certainly encountered people who were like, you know, we've done so much for these people, like why don't they just tell us our stories, it's like they they do not tell you that they want to,

Julia Campbell  19:20  

you can think that in your head. Do not ever say that out loud?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  19:24  

No, it's not good. I think that's the other part too. It's like, I think you have to come from this like humble place of like, asking and if people are willing, being really grateful for that, because I think it is a tremendous opportunity to share these personal stories and vignettes of what people have been through. And, you know, honoring that and really a tremendous way by, you know, telling the story ethically, you know, thinking this person and involving them at points in the process where it makes sense so that they have some, some say in how the story is being represented in a public facing way. I feel like one of the things I've seen Seen and Heard is more and more organizations using story releases where they just have people, like they interview somebody, they have people sign a release saying they can use the story however they want, but then they're not really circling back with people when they go to use it. And I think just continuously having those points of consent is something that always feels really important to me. Yeah, they may have signed a release form two years ago, but we should circle back with them anyway. Just make sure that they're still in a place where they want want to share, listen, they're okay, if we, you know, shared X, Y

Julia Campbell  20:32  

and Z waves. I love that. And I think that so important given people agency, over their story, no matter where it is, if you 10 years later, you want to take it off the website. Okay. That's your prerogative, it's your story, and sharing that people really own their story. And also, I read, I know, I read it on your blog, and I couldn't find the specific post, but sharing to the person that this story doesn't define them, like this experience doesn't define them. And I remember working in domestic violence and thinking just solely from a marketing and fundraising perspective, and not really thinking about, okay, maybe there's 1000 Different things that this person has done and has gone through and has a life experience. And this is one kind of bump in the road, or this is one thing that happened to them. And it doesn't define them. And where does it fit into their, their overall story?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  21:30  

Yeah, and I think that that's something I think a lot about with people who have been through trauma. And I've certainly interviewed and talked to my fair share of people over the years who've been through really traumatic and, frankly, horrible things in their lives. And, you know, as somebody myself who like grapples with PTSD from an accident years ago, I think I'm always sensitive to that, and thinking that like, you know, sure, we want to tell the story of what happened, like the event, maybe that led them to this situation, like in the sense of like, sexual assaults or domestic violence, like, sure, we want to know, like the inciting event, but I think the overriding story doesn't have to dwell on like the specifics that that person went through. It's like, we all know, that was horrible. We do not need to dramatize what someone went through. And I think from an org perspective of where the organization intersects with them, like, it's so much more about how this person has moved forward from something and how the organization has come alongside them and help them and we, we can move away from like, a lot of those details that, you know, sure, like might raise the stakes of the story, but it's like, do we really need to tell that to people?

Julia Campbell  22:40  

Another question that I get all the time that I'm sure you get all the time is that this is wonderful, we really want to write this fundraising story. We want to create the story structure, we want to collect these impactful stories. But our boss says no, our board says No, everyone in the field says no, how do we get stories? These kinds of stories, if we don't work directly with clients, a lot of my listeners are development and marketing directors. So what are some tips on that?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  23:13  

You just got to start with start from where you are. And Julie, I think you said earlier, like, you know, thinking about telling your own story, weaving your own story into there, like you can start with yourself, your greatest subject to use through this and like, use this kind of exercise on yourself and your own story and your relationships with the organization. You know, I think about my time in house as a fundraiser and development officer. And, you know, I had the easiest access to donors and donor stories. And that was where it made sense for me to start, it was, in some ways, way less of a headache to get those. And it was what like what I could do with the resources I had available. And I think that that's like, a way to like take the temperature down on this whole exercise of storytelling for yourself is just starting from where you're at. And, you know, sure, you may have aspirations of what like, a tremendously powerful storytelling program can look like for your organization, but you're not going to go from where you are now to like maybe this really sophisticated program in a month. Feels like there's gonna be some steps in there. And just thinking about like, what are the small steps that you can take in that process to garner buy in, develop internal and institutional knowledge and support for this and move towards that are more of a long term, like medium to long term way?

Julia Campbell  24:33  

So I did watch your YouTube video, I've actually watched a few of them. I loved the one on creating a story bank. Can you share some of those tips with us? Because I think that is something that is really helpful, especially as we're trying to build that buy in, because people can you can say, oh, you know, here's some great stories that we have or have had in the past and here's some other people that have helped us so can you talk about creating us Story bank.

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  25:00  

Yeah, absolutely. I'm such a fan of repurposing content, especially stories,

Julia Campbell  25:07  

let's not reinvent the wheel.

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  25:09  

Yeah, it's like also like, you know how many people are gonna see it if you share at once I think about this all the time with our email with my email clients, when we run email fundraising programs and campaigns for them, it's like, sure certain portion of people open an email, but it's like a small portion. Also, some people may have like skimmed it and not read it. And you're not ever gonna get 100% of your audience size on something. So what can we do with like, really great material that we have to repurpose it, reposition it, and leverage that over time, especially if it's something that worked really well for your organization once like, can we bring it back in a new and different way, and reintroduce it to people. So I think that story banks, content banks, these are all great concepts for you to centralize what it is you have in terms of assets so that you can have a quick inventory of everything. And work with that more frequently. I've seen organizations do this in a lot of different ways, whether it's like series of file folders on a local Drive, Google Drive folders that they manage where they're keeping assets. I've had clients who use Trello boards to organize their story banks love a good Trello board. Yeah, they can like collect all the assets in one place like that. I think there's so many project management tools that you can repurpose for this, that I think the thing that I would say is that when you're collecting these stories, and putting them into a place like this, like the most important things, you're going to want to have our you know, your interview notes, like whether that's like notes, you took a transcript, recording, whatever it might be any images that are approved to be used associated with that story. And also any final write ups or public facing content that you've created, whether that was like a one off social media post, or like a series of appeal letters. So you've written, having those all together for reference is just really helpful, because you're not going to be able to easily find something you posted on social media five years ago. But like, this creates that institutional knowledge for people moving forward within your organization of like, here's what we've done with this before, and being able to find all of that much more easily.

Julia Campbell  27:09  

I love it, having it. Having it digitally, I think is huge. I'm reading a book right now, that is so fantastic. It's called building a second brain, a proven method to organize your digital life and unlock your creative potentials by Thiago forte, I recommend it to absolutely everyone because it's applicable to almost everything that we do. And I absolutely think it's applicable to what you're talking about building a storytelling bank, because the point of the book is like you like you were saying, we have so much information coming at us. We have so many potential places that we can gather stories and get stories and write stories. And how can we manage it all in one place in a place that other people can access? And that we can easily search? And that we can easily find things? I really recommend that book. I love that book. I love anything on creating systems. And I know you're big on creating systems

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  28:04  

Yes, absolutely. And I know that this will probably for some people seem like an extra step in the process where it's like, you want to publish something interesting.

Julia Campbell  28:12  

It's your future self think about your future self.

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  28:15  

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's it can just really be so beneficial. I think one of the simpler ways to get started with it, too, if you're just feeling like, oh my gosh, this sounds like a big undertaking, I do not have time or bandwidth for is I would even just start with like a simple spreadsheet where you could have a couple columns of like the name of the person story, you know, you've collected maybe some information about where the files might live within your organization. And like links to things that you've posted about that story in there. Doesn't have to be super complicated. But like, even that can just be like a quick reference of like, okay, here's like in the last year 10 Really great stories we've told. And now we all remember them and we can find them if we need to.

Julia Campbell  28:56  

Your future self will thank you. That is one of my mantras. I've been writing down mantras that I want to live by and one of them is your future self will thank you. I think about that, when even something simple like I don't want to do the dishes tonight. Okay, my future self, my future self in the morning will thank me putting something in a file, like you just said a Trello board or even just a Google Drive putting something in a spreadsheet when I need it. My future self will thank me. So I think creating these systems is an integral part to just making your development your fundraising department much more effective and efficient. So Vanessa, this is fabulous. Where can people find you? Where can they learn more about you? I know you have an online course. Tell me about your book, your offerings?

Vanessa Chase Lockshin  29:42  

Yeah, the best place to find me is over the storytelling nonprofit.com You can find information about the course they teach called the storytelling nonprofit masterclass, which is a really in depth guide to all things storytelling if you're looking to create a really robust storytelling program for your organization. emotion that drives fundraising results. This will take you from zero to writing fundraising appeals that are story driven within a couple of weeks. And I've also written a companion book to it, which is called the storytelling nonprofit, A Practical Guide to raising or telling stories to raise money and awareness. And you'll find that over on Amazon, but if you're looking to connect with me other places on the web, I’m at Vanessa E. Chase, on Twitter and over on LinkedIn.

Julia Campbell  30:26  

Fantastic, thank you so much for being here. I always learn something when I read your blog post. And every time I hear you speak on podcasts, I really appreciate you being here and everyone, check out the storytelling nonprofit, I will post everything in the show notes. And Vanessa, I just really appreciate your time. And thank you so much. Thank you, Julia. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. Keep changing the world you nonprofit unicorn