Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

How to Build A Profitable and Impactful Nonprofit Consulting Business with Cindy Wagman

March 29, 2023 Julia Campbell Episode 82
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
How to Build A Profitable and Impactful Nonprofit Consulting Business with Cindy Wagman
Show Notes Transcript

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Often in the nonprofit sphere, small shops need fundraising support but can’t find the right talent and don't know where to look. On the other hand, experienced fundraisers want to explore consulting, but don’t know how to grow their business.

Enter Cindy Wagman - she's got both angles covered!

Cindy is the President and Founder of The Good Partnership, a values-driven, social-justice informed consultancy that is working to unlock the potential of small nonprofits through fundraising. She is the host of the top-rated The Small Nonprofit podcast, and best-selling author of Raise It! The Reluctant Fundraiser’s Guide to Raising Money Without Selling Your Soul. In 2022 Cindy started coaching other nonprofit-serving consultants and is the co-host of the Confessions with Jess and Cindy podcast.

In this episode, we talk all things nonprofit consulting, what nonprofits should look for when hiring a fundraising consultant, and how Cindy coaches other consultants to help them build impactful and profitable businesses.

Connect with Cindy:

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass,  3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Julia Campbell  0:00  
It's March Madness people. No, not the sportsball March Madness. It's my 30th anniversary of being in business and I have a goal of hitting 100,000 podcast downloads. Here are three ways to help one, download one or more of your favorite episodes, including setting your fundraising mindset with Rhea Huang, ethical storytelling with KALLIOPI claros. What the best fundraisers do differently with Sabrina Walker Hernandez, and my special series on what's next in Social Media for Nonprofits, just to name a few number to share an episode with a friend or a colleague, you can go to pod dot link, backslash nonprofit nation to find descriptions and links to all the episodes. Number three, take a screenshot of the podcast and share with your network. Be sure to tag me so I can find it and share it out. Also, I truly appreciate all of you, your time, your attention and your passion to make the world a better place. Now, let's get to today's episode.

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started.

Hi, everyone, welcome back to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, thrilled that you're joining us today. And it's a little bit of a different topic today. But something that I know a lot of you are very interested in whether you are a small nonprofit, looking to work with a consultant or whether you are a fundraiser or a marketer, a nonprofit professional looking to take the leap to consulting. We have the expert on both sides here today. So I'm definitely going to pick her brain about both things. Cindy Wagman is the president and founder of the good partnership, the home of the fractional fundraising movement, we'll talk a lot about that, connecting small nonprofits and the fractional fundraisers that serve them. She has many, many, many designations, you know, CFRE MBA, I love it. She's a presenter, a speaker, host of the top rated small nonprofit podcast, and best selling author of raise it The Reluctant fundraisers guide to raising money without selling your soul with an incredible title. And in 2022, Cindy started coaching other nonprofits serving consultants to help them build impactful and profitable businesses. She's also the co host of the confessions with Jess and Cindy podcast that serves consultants and I have been fortunate enough to be a guest on that podcast and I listened to every single episode, I think it is just it was it filled such a hole in the sector, such a hole for consultants, because so much of the information out there is really not designed with nonprofits and you know, mission driven organizations in mind. So I absolutely recommend checking out the small nonprofit podcasts, the confessions podcast, and the good partnerships. So Cindy, welcome. 

Cindy Wagman  3:53  
Thank you. And thank you for those wonderful words. It's such a pleasure to be with you and to have had you on the confessions podcast, such a good episode. So I love how open and transparent you you are. 

Julia Campbell  4:09  
It's just such a fantastic idea. Because when I found this podcast, and when I found the work that you and Jeff Campbell are doing together, and the work that you do through the good partnership, I had never really seen a community of nonprofit consultants. It's sort of something I'd always wanted to happen. And thought, Oh, that'd be a great idea. But I never picked up the ball and ran with it. And you both did. And I think that's, it's just amazing. And you have this fantastic Slack channel. I will put all of those resources into the show notes for anyone that wants to check it out. But Cindy, how did you get started in nonprofit work? Because I know that you've been a fundraiser for a very long time.

Cindy Wagman  4:51  
Yeah. So I'm a bit of a rarity in the sector in that I decided I wanted to fundraise when I was in university I would hadn't graduated. 

Julia Campbell  5:01  
You're not an accidental felon. 

Cindy Wagman  5:04  
I was it was very intentional. And I even wrote a thesis in my undergrad on feminist fundraising. 

Julia Campbell  5:11  
Incredible. And I want to read that. 

Cindy Wagman  5:14  
It's really boring.

Julia Campbell  5:16  
Not boring at all. 

Cindy Wagman  5:18  
Over 20 years old and very academic, but I, I yeah, I knew what as soon as I discovered that that was a career option. It just felt right for me. And so I truly had been doing it ever since, in organizations very small and very large. And I discovered that the small ones are where my heart is. And so that's what I focus on now. 

Julia Campbell  5:40  
When did you go off on your own? 

Cindy Wagman  5:43  
So it was 2015. I was on that leave with my second kid. And my mentor, Laurie, and I were having coffee. And she said, you know, this organization? They're really cool. And they're looking for someone to run a capital campaign, would you be interested? So I don't know. Like, I have a pretty comfy cushy job that most people would be pretty, like envious of. Don't want to leave that. And she said, Well, would you do this as a consultant? And I was like, Oh, I can do that. 

Julia Campbell  6:12  
Like, that was my actual first reaction. Oh, I can do that. 

Cindy Wagman  6:17  
Yeah, like I kind of thought consulting. I mean, no shade to anyone who's done this. But I always expected it was like your semi retirement plan. 

Julia Campbell  6:25  
Or you have to work for some big agency. 

Cindy Wagman  6:27  
Yeah. Or you're an agency, right. Like, that was what I was picturing is, and that was my experience with consultants. When I was in house, like I had been, you know, we had worked with agencies doing direct appeal and stuff like that great. Like those are, that's really a specialist job. And I've worked with those, like, semi retired consultants who come in and give you advice that you've been telling the board for years, but they listen only when this other person come then. So I didn't really think of it until she said it. And then I was like, Okay, this is it. And that first contract that capital campaign, it was like a two year contract. It was three days a week, I was earning more than I wasn't my full time cushy job. So checked off all the marks. And it was a super cool, fun campaign. And that gave me the runway to start to figure out what I want to do with this business.

Julia Campbell  7:19  
And you founded the good partnership when? 

Cindy Wagman  7:22  
That was officially when the good partnership started in 2015.

Julia Campbell  7:25  
Okay, in 2015. Okay. Yeah, I started my business in 2010. And I'm still Julia Campbell, social marketing, because I never picked a name. People asked me, yeah, I love the good partnership. 

Cindy Wagman  7:37  
I hate the good partnership. Oh, I hate it. Like at the time was just like, I couldn't think of anything better. There are so many goods in our sector. And I don't like it, but it is here and I'm not going to change it. I do know that it has enough brand equity, that it's not worth redoing. And also like, is there something that's going to be that much more impressive? Probably not. I do some coaching and consulting under like for other consultants under Cindy Wagman coaching, but for the most part, it's a good partnership, and it's here to stay.

Julia Campbell  8:11  
I think that's funny, because I have two conflicting things that I usually tell people when they're starting out their consultancy, one is just get started and don't wait for everything to be perfect. But the second is think really strongly about your name. And if you're going to incorporate or get an LLC think really strongly about it. But I think both can be true at the same time.

Cindy Wagman  8:31  
Yeah. And like it has not made or broken my success. Really, that is not the deciding factor in how well I do.

Julia Campbell  8:39  
Exactly. It's not like oh, the good partnership, I'm not gonna hire Cindy. It's not the same.

Cindy Wagman  8:44  
Cheesy name, it's over done.

Julia Campbell  8:47  
We'll see I kind of like it, but I love cheesy stuff. So I'm gonna switch gears today and talk about consulting. But it's definitely going to be relevant to the small nonprofits in the audience that are looking for consultants. But we're going to talk about starting a consulting business and then how not small nonprofits especially can work with consultants, but I know that in 2022, you started coaching, nonprofit serving consultants, and you co host the confessions podcast, you manage the vibrant, you know, Slack channel. So how did that all come about? 

Cindy Wagman  9:24  
Yeah. So I want to shout out to Jess Campbell, who actually she set up the slack channel. But Jess and I have sort of like found each other in the sea of online connections. And we collaborate a lot on things including the podcast as kindred spirits we are it's so fun to work with her. And we both had sort of been doing these different things working with the same audience and came together to do even more so it's really fun. But both of us have the same story of being having the experience of consulting and you know, I've taken I mean before we started Recording, you mentioned the two big investments you've made in your professional development as a consultant. I love investing in myself. So I've done like, business by design. For anyone who doesn't like know what these are? It's irrelevant.

Julia Campbell  10:14  
If you're not an online marketing online business nerd. 

Cindy Wagman  10:18  
Yeah. But there's, you know, there's people that we follow Amy Porterfield, and all these programs, and that are teaching you how to build your business or how to build an online

Julia Campbell  10:28  
Direct message to millions.

Cindy Wagman  10:30  
Yeah. And I've done Colin Boyd around speaking and all you know, there's so many and none of them know, the nonprofit sector. 

Julia Campbell  10:39  
There's even actual programs around b2b consultancies. And I found exactly what you just said. So yeah.

They just don't understand that the decision making is different, and how to work with organizations is different. And also one of the things that I found really challenging again, I knew I wanted to work with smaller organizations, that's been the touchstone for me in my business. And I found that like, even traditional consulting solutions, like being the expert, and coming in and giving a strategy or a plan fell short, because smaller organizations didn't have the capacity to implement. And so how we serve, how we sell all of that is different, and no one teaches that. So Jess, and I kind of come at it from different approaches. But, you know, it's that what we do is different, and we need a space to learn how to do it well.

I think what's so unique about what you do, and the partnership that you just have, with all of the resources you provide, is that you're coming at it from a very collaborative standpoint, where a rising tide lifts all ships, and I say this all the time, and I firmly believe it. And I'm just a big fan of, you know, Seth Godin, and how you don't really have competitors, because you have your unique spin on things. So you know, someone that comes into the sector and is like, oh, I want to be a consultant. Oh, but I might not want to talk to other consultants or collaborate with other consultants. What would the advice be that you would give to them?

Cindy Wagman  12:20  
I don't blame people for that. Because coming out of the nonprofit sector, that's a mindset that we've learned in charities, right?

Julia Campbell  12:28  
As fundraisers, right? Yeah. 

Cindy Wagman  12:30  
It is so prevalent.

Julia Campbell  12:31  
Piece of the pie, we got to get our hands to the pie. Yeah.

Cindy Wagman  12:33  
We're competing for donors, we're competing for funding, we're competing for this and that. So we've been taught this over and over and over again. But that is so far from the truth. And the other, I would say that so much of my business, like has come from direct referrals from other consultants. And I also like, I just hired just to write a bunch of emails for me, because she does it way better than I do and way less time. And so there's this community where we can support each other. And even if someone does something similar to you, they're not going to do it the same way. They're not going to do with the same audience. And let's be honest, like, we're in this sector. There's no like brand new ideas. People are coming to us because of who we are and how we connect with people. And so there's so much space, I remember, my friend, Emma loozy, who's amazing. She's based here in Toronto, when she was like, Oh, should I consult? I was like, yes, you should. I truly think that the benefits are so significant. And that's one of the reasons why we haven't sort of touched upon this yet. But I created this, I didn't create the model. But I created a sort of space for this of fractional fundraising, where small organizations can hire a fractional fundraiser, and I can talk about what that means. But the whole reason I created that is because we were doing it in house. And we were fully booked. And I have a really hard time saying no to good organizations. I'm like, I want to help everyone. And so I went from having like four full time in house, fractional fundraisers, to now a network of 11, who are all their own consultants, they run their own businesses, and they are fully booked. And so we're growing. And it's just there's so much work out there. And our sector needs meaningful solutions. And I think there's a lot of untapped opportunity to both like have a thriving business, but also, like impacting organizations in a meaningful way. Because I think there's a lot of there are some consultants who give consulting a bad name, and who do things that are not necessarily that valuable, but I want to call like the next generation of consultants who are all about community or I was on a call yesterday, we're calling it like the cool consultants like there's a community You have people who are driven by mission, they want to help, and they want to support each other and they want to be in community. They just don't necessarily want to work the full time job anymore.

Julia Campbell  15:12  
So this is very interesting. And I think it's kind of revolutionary. It's so innovative, and we were talking about it before we were recording, because your fractional fundraiser program, it's for consultants, people that want to grow their consulting business or start a business, but it's also for a small nonprofit that needs a fractional fundraiser. So you're really answering two huge pain points here. And it just got my wheels turning, because people come to me for referrals, they asked me, you know, I need a social media manager, I do not do social media, day to day social media management or posting, but they trust me, and they know me, and maybe they've worked with me or heard me speak and want to understand, like, want to know, like, first of all, how will how would that work? What does it look like? Where could I look? So you're really creating this like ecosystem of consultants that are trained by you and vetted by you? And then organizations that come to you if they really need that in house help. So yeah, talk to me about it's like a system, it's a plan. And, you know, what are some if people are really thinking they're ready to launch a consulting business? Like what are some things that they should consider?

Cindy Wagman  16:28  
So the fractional fundraiser Academy is, is my education program where I basically teach people experienced fundraisers? I'm not teaching them how to fundraise. But I'm teaching experienced fundraisers how to build a fractional fundraising business. It's like the MBA. Exactly, exactly. And it's a very specific model that I want to I just want to touch on the like, Win Win Win of it. Because to me that's so important, is, as I grew my business as we tried different things, as we did this in house, I kept trying to figure out like, how do I do what's best for the organization? What's best for my team? Or the people around me? And how do I benefit? And I feel like we often talk about like, you can be two, but not all three. But I actually didn't accept that. I was like, I think we can hit all those. So what I did is I said, Okay, well, like literally, when I hired people in house, they were making like 40 $50,000, when I transitioned them to this model, they're making 100 140,000, right? So it benefits them. And I get like, they have everything, everything they need to be successful in this business, including coaching and access to me, and community. And then a benefits organization, I want to talk about that because I know a lot of your your audience are nonprofit. So for people who are thinking about consulting, it's basically like a launchpad. It's like everything is thought I've tested the limits of like, how many clients you can have, how many, how much you should charge, like, all of those things have been tested, and it's packaged and ready to go. And it's a great launch. Like, if you're an experienced fundraiser, it will get you set up. Some people like to do this, like with three clients, and they're working full time. And it's great, but I have other consultants who have one or two clients. And either just that's all they work or they do other consulting work on the side, you get to choose. That's my favorite line these days, because as consultants, I think we feel like we have to do it this way or have to do it that way. But you get to choose. But for organizations, I think that this is such a game changing offer. Now, it's not unique to fractional fundraisers, there's fractional CMOS or as fractional CFOs. But the idea is small organizations traditionally, haven't had access to strategic experienced staffing, right, your budgets are small. And I experienced this where I was the first and only hired fundraiser in an organization. And I wasn't paid that much. And I was successful. But I saw organizations where you'd come in, and you'd have a board and an executive director who are telling you to do all the wrong things.

Julia Campbell  19:18  
And then you have other duties as assigned scope creep. If you're a person that's 40 hours a week or 50, you know, let's be realistic, like 60 hours a week, probably the scope creep, it just everything but programs ends up on your plate.

Cindy Wagman  19:32  
Yeah, but they can't afford an experienced fundraiser who can actually say, Okay, no, that's actually not the right thing. And so there's this gap that was creating this perpetual cycle for smaller organizations of wasting their money. Because they didn't invest in fundraising. They wouldn't be consistent in implementation. They'd have high staff turnover, and then it would just reset. And so this fractional model allows organizations to get insistent implementation done from a strategic perspective, like our contracts start at 12 months, and often lasts longer. And so they're getting, they're creating the culture or the environment of the organization, that eventually we'll be ready to hire in house. But it's designed to kind of bridge that gap. And so, it really and actually raise money, right? Because fundraising results come from implementing the right strategy consistently. And there are so few organizations that again, it's a three legged stool, like we do all of it. So it benefits the organization significantly. We've seen organizations have like incredible fundraising, growth, and establish their systems and change that culture and all those good things. So that's the two big wins. But I often get asked, What's in it for me? Like, how do I benefit? Because I actually don't charge anything to the organization's for matching them to fundraisers, people pay me to learn this. So they pay to be part of the academies

Julia Campbell  21:06  
Or like a chamber of commerce almost, yeah, for membership. And that's exactly the benefits.

Cindy Wagman  21:11  
Exactly. So after you graduate, the academy, there's like an ongoing, very inexpensive membership option that you can just continue to be part of our community have access to me, but at the end of the day, the charities don't pay anything extra. So it's a pretty good. Well, I think it's a pretty good model.

Julia Campbell  21:30  
So this is really interesting, because I do think that there are a lot of small nonprofits out there that need the strategy, but also need the implementation. And I see that all the time, where they don't have a fundraising plan they don't have or a marketing plan, maybe they've never hired a person in house before. Or maybe they've been without an in person hire for a while. And they need to kind of you know, wrap things up again, and ramp things up again, they are just so scared about making that in person hire. I mean, it's so huge, you know, with benefits and health insurance and everything that is required for the in person hire, but what they don't want is a consultant just to come in and tell them, Okay, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this, but not help them implement. So I think that implementation piece is huge. So I see that I see consultancies. I mean, really, there's no mold, you know, there's you could do a strategic consultancy. You could do a consultancy, where you just do coaching, coaching calls, right? But you can do a consultancy with implementation. Like there's all sorts of variety.

Cindy Wagman  22:38  
So there's, I sort of bucket them and I created this little quiz,

Julia Campbell  22:42  
Oh yeah, quiz the good partnership.com/quiz, right?

Cindy Wagman  22:46  
Yeah. It's designed to help people figure out their fundraising personality, because there are lots of options. And you can be a hybrid of them. But at the end of the day, we have different styles of working. And we have different rewards like internal external types of rewards that make us feel good about the work that we're doing and the impact that we're having. And so I have the four buckets that I've come up with, one is the fractional, right, like where you love implementation, you want to roll up your sleeves, you want to see transformations, in, you know, change, you can actually like see and touch and smell type thing. But there's a coaches who are focused on uplifting leadership and helping other people become like, their best selves. And so like, that's another and I do, I do coaching. So I, you know, appreciate that as well. But it's not coming in and doing all the work, but it's really building capacity. There's the experts who have like, so much knowledge that they want to impart and share with the sector so that they also again, like can do their jobs better. And then there's the agencies, which we talked about, like right at the beginning, like, they're kind of experts, but they come in, and they actually like work on the projects, and they get it done. And some people are really well suited to being in an agency or even starting an agency because they're focused, they know what they're an expert in. But they also want a little bit of the implementation. So yeah, those are the four and you can go you can figure out which one you are, as you said, at the good partnership.com/quiz. But there's so many models. And I think that that's like a huge myth that's been perpetuated in our sector is like, you're either the agency or you're like a coach expert who's like, kind of give advice and walk away. So yeah, there's a lot of options.

Julia Campbell  24:44  
And a lot of nonprofits want different things. I find that some organizations I work with, who are hopefully listening and I love you and adore you. I'm like a therapist. I'm very often a couples therapist between marketing and fundraising. That's a lot of what I do trying to get them To understand each other and work together on a campaign, I feel like that is a lot of what I do. But also there have been times when I have done implementation, copywriting campaign plan, writing a campaign plan, doing an audit, all those kinds of things. So you're right, there's really not that one specific model, but I love that. So if you're looking to build a consulting business, or you're just interested, you know, dip your toe in the pond, take the quiz, I'll put it in the show notes. And I want to kind of transition over to what I think holds a lot of people back from taking the plunge, which is needing to have your ducks in a row, like you have, everything has to be perfect. I know that I never probably would have started a consulting business if I wasn't laid off and forced to do so. And then, of course, like, never looked back. But so many people come to me they're like, do I need ConvertKit or MailChimp? Or Constant Contact? Do I need dubsado 20 QuickBooks? Do I need this? Do I need that? And I guess my advice would be, just start just get started like WordPress, Squarespace, do something for free. Hang your shingle up your digital shingle, and then really piece it together as you go. I mean, you don't have to have your invoicing software ready to go on day one, like? Yeah, so what would your advice be?

Cindy Wagman  26:22  
Yeah. And guess what will you start within day one, it's going to change over time. I literally just changed my email system like today.

Julia Campbell  26:31  
I'm obsessed with ConvertKit. 

Cindy Wagman  26:33  
I just switched to ConvertKit. 

Julia Campbell  26:34  
Oh, I can't even tell you how obsessed I am.

Cindy Wagman  26:37  
But here's the thing, like most of the time, when you start a consulting business, you actually don't need an email marketing tool and true. Emailing. Exactly. But like most of the time, you need your clients. So what

Julia Campbell  26:48  
exactly keeping track of Google doc keep track your clients?

Cindy Wagman  26:52  
What are you doing to get those clients? 

Julia Campbell  26:55  
Yeah, and let's talk about this. 

Cindy Wagman  26:56  
Yeah, I mean, really, it's networking, and putting yourself out there and being really clear on how you help. So often, we talk about our own expertise and like what we're good at, but it actually is not relevant organizations want to know how you are solving their problems. So you really don't need a lot. And in the fractional fundraiser Academy, I mean, I like those systems. So I've actually created templates or like very specific recommendations on what's the path like is the MVP, right? The minimal viable product? What is the path that is going to get you to saying yes to clients as fast as possible, and not spending all your time manually managing invoices and stuff like that. So like I have, I have like a proposal template, I have a Squarespace one page site template that I created with messaging pre populated, I'm such a nerd. I have like email templates. So you need to go network, here's an email that you can send to like five people just asking for coffee. I definitely think like starting with some networking, as you're building your business, like you want to register, you want to get insurance, you want to do all these things. But you start networking right away, you want to be connecting with people. And then how do you ask for business, which is the biggest thing and again, it's about it's not about you. It's about putting yourself out there and how you are serving, I always think of sales as a service. How are you serving organizations, and if you can just get out there and start doing that you will start getting clients. The other thing with the fractional fundraising is you don't need a lot of clients, right? It's not the feast and famine of traditional consulting. Three clients is like a full workload. It's not like I need 20 clients this year. Again, it's designed to just be like a really smooth transition. But you don't have to be hustling like no one. I think that like, you know, a couple years ago, hustle culture was all there. You know, hustle culture, hustle. I've seen like T shirts and mugs and all the things with hustle. No one is interested in that anymore.

Julia Campbell  29:07  
I think it's a very, like ablest misogynistic way of thinking, because hustle culture, like who can raise a family and have a house and take care of aging parents and also hustle 90 hours a week like you just, it's just not possible for so many of us. And that's what I really like about consulting is you do have that extra freedom once you kind of find your groove. And that's really what impressed me about the fractional fundraisers when I was looking at the FAQs. You really do answer like okay, how you know, and I'll let everybody go to the website and look it up. But how much money can I expect to make a month how many clients should I have all these really tactical questions that people have? Because they're so you know, consulting like what does that word mean? Nobody knows what I do. I don't think my friends, my family, feel like oh, she goes around the country and speaks and talks to nonprofits. I don't know what she does. And it's so hard to explain the work that goes into it. So I think it's a lot. It's scary for people. It's this big, you know, sort of weird, ephemeral thing.

Cindy Wagman  30:19  
I have two kids, right? I'm the primary breadwinner, I'm my husband, I make similar amounts of money, but I make more, and I get it, it's a big step, it is scary. And also, when I started, I found like, the power dynamic shift of going from, like, you know, please are gonna have a job to I'm a consultant, here's what I charge. And like, this is how I can help you. It's so different. And so I like to have a lot of information when I make decisions. And so I can appreciate that other people want answers to so I actually have, I think, on April 12, I have a budget template coming out, where you can actually like, plug in your revenue, plug it well, it's pre populated with revenue and expenses, but you can tweak them. So if you like, I only want to work. Like I have one member in our network, who she has kids. And they have some Airbnb properties that she manages, like, I just I love fundraising, I want to help organizations, so I only want one client, right, you get to put in one client and that template. But if you want three, and you want to be like working full time, hours, you get to choose but even with that, there's so many examples of how much more flexible like even if you're working quote unquote, full time as a consultant. You know, I one day, I cancelled all my meetings and went on my son's field trip, or one of our consultants had a family emergency and had to drop everything for a few days. And you can do that. So we want to know that it's safe. Because it's a big step for people.

Julia Campbell  32:03  
In terms of finding clients. This, I think is the really big question. Also, of course, like getting more visibility is like the number one question. So we should probably talk about that. But I want to say one thing about getting clients. So my best friend, she quit her job started an organization business. And she was very smart about it, because she just told everybody showed everybody, everybody first of all needs organization. I already hired her for like five different things. And then I was like, Oh, my mom needs this. And this. You gotta tell people, I think that we are so worried about coming off as salesy or marketing, marketing or smarmy, or I don't know, spammy. But you have to just put it out there and say, and people are going to be so thrilled to help you. And I know that I still get referrals from friends that are sitting on nonprofit boards, or maybe they went to a conference or maybe they talk to somebody that runs a nonprofit starting a nonprofit. And they're like oh, Julia's, like the nonprofit expert, or she does nonprofit marketing, like you should talk to her. So if you don't ever tell people what you do, or put it out there, then you're not going to be able to get those referrals and do that networking. So I think that mindset of we're salesy, well, no, you're just simply letting people help you build your business, but also, you have a solution to a problem. That's how you need to think about it. 

Cindy Wagman  33:26  
I think they're not helping you. They're helping the organizations they care about.

Julia Campbell  33:31  
Exactly, that's a better even a better way to frame it. Totally.

Cindy Wagman  33:34  
And that's the that's the crux of it is there is we think that there's like a limit on goodwill. Right? And, and our desire to like be helpful in the world. But there isn't like, when we put our and again, like, that's why I created these templates, because it took me a long time to learn how to put myself out there and how to approach sales as a service. But it's actually not complicated at all, because it doesn't have anything to do with me. But it's like, how are the people in my network? Like, what are the organizations they care about? What are their challenges? And how am I put on this planet to help them? And that is like, well, if I think about it that way, I can't shut up because I know I can help. Right? I know, that I am put here to do good things and to serve in that way. And so I'm not talking about myself, I'm just here to offer support. And so yeah, sales, like putting yourself out there even the word sales like it's, it implies this complex system and it doesn't have to be that way. But all of my first clients came from my immediate network. And over time I've been marketing and now that's not always true. Although I yesterday I had a business development call with a woman who I've known for many years she went to high school with my husband Right, like, so your network is still there, they're always going to be there, even if you do invest in marketing and all of that, but they want to see you succeed, and they want the organizations they care about to get help. So again, it's a win win.

Julia Campbell  35:14  
So in terms of marketing, I do want to talk a little bit about this. Because people are very concerned, where should they be? Should they be everywhere. And I actually just talked to Mallory Erickson, about the marketing that she does on Instagram. And she said that like 50% of her clients come from Instagram. So I think she's a really good data point to say, I'm going to double down on Instagram. You know, I don't really get clients from Instagram, but I don't use it in that way. I get more clients from speaking from my podcast, from email, and from referrals. So in terms of visibility, how do you recommend we kind of prioritize where we are?

Cindy Wagman  35:53  
So I think it's like, what are we good at? So what am I? 

Julia Campbell  35:58  
What do we like, I like Instagram reels.

Cindy Wagman  36:00  
I like speaking, I like speaking, I have two podcasts. And I have a mini like private Podcast coming out as part of the launch of the academy. So that's like three podcasts, right? 

Yeah. Oh my god, I love your podcast.

But also that's become how people know me, and they know my voice. So at the end of the day, like that's, you got to pick where to play where few what feels good to you, and where your audience plays. So like, at the end of the day, if your audience isn't there, that's not helpful. But as long as they're playing, you have an opportunity to stand out in that space. So you can't do everything. You know, we all know that. And honestly, I also think that it's the same with fundraising, like don't do all the things focus on a few things and do them really well, consistently, over a period of time, and you will see compounded results. And so yeah, for me, is just like, I like podcasting. I don't even know why, but one a friend of mine, Avery, when I first started thinking about the podcast, she said something that blew my mind that I just want to share because it was a game changer for me. So she said, like we're sitting over a glass of wine on a patio on a sunny day. I think it was like spring or fall in Toronto.

Julia Campbell  37:19  
I'm visiting you next time I come to Toronto. 

Cindy Wagman  37:21  
Yes. Please, anyone come come visit me in Toronto, but especially you. So she's I was like, I've been thinking this was like four or five years ago, maybe what I think my podcasts about four or five years old. She said, Well, is there anyone else you can partner with? To do this? So you don't have to shoulder the whole thing. And so I was like, Okay, there's three organizations, such companies that I actually serve the same audience. So again, service, that we serve the same audience, small nonprofits, and one of them I had done like a webinar for and it felt like I sort of evaluated which would make the most sense. They did a lot of content. And I just reached out to the woman who helped was like my contact for the webinar. And I said, I've been thinking about this podcast, would you want to partner with me? And they said, Yes. Now, this was like, when I had maybe 1500 people on my email list, maybe less. Their list is like 80,000 people. Okay? Huge. And it's not a secret, like you can probably Google who the partner was, but I don't partner with them anymore. And that's a whole other conversation, but they're great. They were a great partner.

Julia Campbell  38:37  
It was a conscious uncoupling. 

Cindy Wagman  38:39  
Yeah, at the time, I thought, like, who am I to pitch them on this thing? And I mean, that's one of the reasons my podcast as I was partnering with them, or podcast was number one in Canada pretty much consistently for three years. Now, it wasn't after that, because their audience was so huge, but at the end of the day, like it was an amazing experience. And sure, do I have the same number of listeners? Not quite by so I have a pretty significant base. So yeah, that was a game changer for me.

Julia Campbell  39:12  
But you got the name out there, the word out there, and you got exposure to the right people, which is key. I love that idea of partnering. That's really a lot what I did. And that's kind of my biggest piece of advice for consultants trying to get their, you know, get their name out there. Like what does that even mean? Like you could get your name out there, but not in a good way. Right? You want to make sure it's a good way. So I did the same kind of thing. I just sort of emailed the marketing and partnerships director, a lot of these software companies, see if I could do a webinar, do a guest blog post, be on their podcast. I just really did a lot of pitching, like a lot of pitching. And it really worked out well. And now I have these lifelong partnerships with people that I mean, years have been years and some are really good friends of mine now. So I think just being very clear on like you said, like what you offer? What's the pain point you're solving? What's your, your kind of unique take on it? And then, because if you pitch somebody like that there has to be unique value to their audience. So what's not saying like, Hey, here's my bio, and I'm amazing, but it's what's the value to your audience that I want to get in front of? I think that's really important. 

Cindy Wagman  40:30  
If we can learn anything, it's like, it's not about us. It's not about us. But we have something to share. So how are we sharing that? How do we help others? And yeah, and one thing I'll say is the other part of that is like, what are our values? Because while it's not about us, we have to, at some point, draw some some lines in the sand around what do we stand for? And what do we want to be known for? So it's playing around with all those things. But again, if you start with service, just start with that as your, you know, how can I serve? Whatever community I want to, I want to support, I feel like that's your guiding star that will take you in the right direction.

Julia Campbell  41:11  
So sadly, we have to wrap it up. My last question, what do you wish you knew when you were first starting out? Like what would you tell? 2015? Sunday?

Cindy Wagman  41:23  
Honestly, I really like the journey that I've had. And I would reinforce, that I can make decisions that are aligned with my values. And it might feel like it's hurting my business, but it won't. And that I will bring me to the people who I need to be with, and in community with. But also like, I feel like sometimes we hold ourselves back just for we play safe. But I don't know if I would do things differently. So yeah, I really just like have have the courage to stand by what makes sense for you.

Julia Campbell  42:05  
I love that. I really, really love that. I don't think I would change anything differently either. But it's all part of the journey, because that makes us who we are. All right. So where can people find out about you work with you find out more about fractional fundraiser Academy.

Cindy Wagman  42:22  
Just go to the good partnership.com I'm on Instagram, but not very active. The good partnership and LinkedIn. I'm trying to be more active on LinkedIn.

Julia Campbell  42:31  
Please, for consultants, I think, and nonprofits alike. 

Cindy Wagman  42:34  
Yeah, I think so too. So connect with me, definitely take the quiz. It's super fun. And like I said, I have more goodies coming out as we get get ready to open the doors to the academy.

Julia Campbell  42:46  
All right. Well, Cindy, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and for being here today.

Cindy Wagman  42:52  
Thank you so much. I just want to say one of the things the past few years has done is like really opened up a space for online connections. And I feel like I've met so many incredible people like you and jazz, where I wouldn't have known you before. And it's, you know, I've enjoyed getting to know you so.

Julia Campbell  43:12  
Oh, thank you and yes, I'm inviting myself to Toronto. Well, that's where a lot of my relatives are. My mom's side of the family is from Toronto. So we go up there a couple times a year. So I'm definitely we're gonna do we'll do a live podcast together 100%.

Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven seven. Keep changing the world your nonprofit unicorn.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai