How to Set Boundaries and Banish Burnout with Rachel Bearbower

This episode is sponsored by my friends at Keela,  a comprehensive fundraising and donor management software that will help you expand your reach, increase fundraising revenue, and foster a dedicated community of supporters.

Several of my clients are currently using Keela and have continued to be impressed with how easy it is to use, how affordable it is and most importantly, the results that they see and the impact they are able to create.

Keela is hosting a webinar, led by me, on June 6 - How to Drive Donations and Get Engagement Using Social Media. It’s totally free, and you can get all the details and sign up by clicking here.

As a former small shop Executive Director, Rachel Bearbower of Small Shop Strategies understands how tough it is to do everything on your own. The stress, frustration and being underfunded can be overwhelming. How can we set boundaries and banish burnout in our jobs and in our personal lives?

In this episode, we discuss:

•  Rachel's ideas for building resilience in our organizations and in ourselves, especially after the collective trauma we all experienced (the pandemic)
• The 4 things most successful nonprofit organizations and successful EDs have in common
• Some of her favorite time-saving tips - how to work smarter and not harder
• Her best advice for small shop fundraisers and EDs trying to make it all work 

Connect with Rachel

• Productivity Challenge: https://www.smallshopstrategies.com/challenge
• IG: https://www.instagram.com/smallshopstrategies/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelbearbower/

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. 

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

Julia Campbell: 0:00

Hello This episode is sponsored by my friends at Keela, a comprehensive fundraising and donor management software that will help you expand your reach, increase your fundraising revenue, and foster a dedicated community of supporters. Now several of my clients are currently using Keela. And they continue to be impressed with how easy it is to use, how affordable it is, and most importantly, the results that they see and the impact they're able to create. Now, Keela is hosting a free webinar led by me on June 6, how to drive donations and get engagement using social media. It's totally free. And you can get all the details and sign up at www.jcsocialmarketing.com/keela that's www.jcsocialmarketing.com/keela See you there. Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone, so excited to have you back for another episode of nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Today we are going to discuss strategies and tips for how to take back your time and banish burnout. And I have a guest here that I've been really excited to have on the podcast. And I know a lot of you know, Rachel Bearbower, and she's the founder and CEO of Small Shop Strategies, a nonprofit consultancy focused on teaching executive directors how to detangle their systems, so they can focus their time and energy on building relationships and raising more for their causes. And in just the last three years, Rachel has built a community where over 100 executive directors are showing up for themselves, and learning how to boldly fundraise, tell better stories, and become even more impactful change makers. And I love this piece of the bio. So I have to read this Rachel, you can also find her doing chores on the farm. She lives in Iowa and helps run a 500 plus acre property, rolling her eyes at one of her three rescue pups who have probably eaten something they shouldn't have. And meal prepping. Oh my gosh, I always want to meal prep, but I never do. So maybe we can talk about that later. But Rachel, welcome.

Rachel Bearbower: 3:16

Hello, Julia. I am very excited to be here.

Julia Campbell: 3:20

I'm sure you don't need any other introduction. But tell me about where you started a nonprofit journey and how you landed on the work that you do today with executive directors.

Rachel Bearbower: 3:32

Oh, my gosh. Well, to be honest, I, I started by accident. I was I was working for a financial institution. I was planning to be a financial advisor. I had plans to like wear a power suit. And that just came crumbling down when I realized how much it sucked. You know it I realized it wasn't for me. I actually quit my job in a meeting In a meeting In a meeting. Yeah

Julia Campbell: 4:04

Like, I'm not doing this.

Rachel Bearbower: 4:05

Yeah, I will say that it. It wasn't maybe my most proud moment. But it was real. And it was honest. And I left that job. I was living in Boston, I left Massachusetts, went back to Washington State and had heard about this organization like this nonprofit thing. And I was like, okay, it can't be that hard to start a nonprofit famous you last words. And I mean, if I had known anything about you know, just how hard it is to run an organization, I would have never started one. But I was so naive and just so driven that I just kept putting one foot in front of the other and then founder Executive Director years later, here I am and getting to where I am today is because I started by teaching what I know. And that was how to be an executive director in a small shop.

Julia Campbell: 5:03

Well tell us about this organization.

Rachel Bearbower: 5:05

It's called Girls on the Run. And so it's a national organization. And so I founded the chapter that was local to my community in Washington. But it's a youth empowerment program for girls and teaching them life lessons through running, which I'm not so much a runner right now. But I used to run up mountains for fun. So it really that just the lessons you can learn through running really spoke to me.

Julia Campbell: 5:31

That's so cool. Yeah, I'm not a runner I did used to run. But I love the name Girls on the Run. And I think that a lot of my listeners can definitely sympathize with the doing everything on your own, and being underfunded and wearing all the hats. Certainly, that's something that a lot of the listeners of my podcast my clients can sympathize with. So I've took your productivity challenge, which we'll talk about. And what I thought was so interesting, when I've been reading a lot about your work is that I know that you have a problem with the word productivity. So I do as well. And I'm trying to find a better word for it. But you write on your website, and you write this to executive directors, you know, you already put enough pressure on yourself to be productive all the time. But I'm here to show you the tools and strategies to work smarter, as in work less corn doesn't produce 24/7 12 months a year, and neither should you. So can you tell me more about sustainable nonprofits versus, you know, quote, unquote, productive nonprofits

Rachel Bearbower: 6:44

I think I've always been somebody who has embraced kind of a seasonal mindset, and then becoming a farmer that has basically become my life. And to be sustainable to continue to do what you want to do, you have to first know where you are, and then know where you want to go. And, you know, I think most organizations and at least the people inside of them, they're drained, and they're scattered, and they are overstretched. And so, to me, a productive nonprofit is an organization that is trying to do more with less, it's a nonprofit way, continuing to do more and more and more and be more productive. It's more, it's always more. And

Julia Campbell: 7:32

there's always more to produce, there's always more to do, there's always more time to fell.

Rachel Bearbower: 7:37

Exactly. And, and I think a sustainable organization is really figures out. So there's the idea of a sustainable organization, but sustainable impact, okay, so you have to strike this balance between figuring out what you do, and then doing that, and doing that really well. And then doubling down on that. And usually, where, where you want to go, is that sustained impact. And I don't want sustained impact to be confused with like being content, because I think that in our organizations, we are constantly trying to do good, we are making systemic change. This also means being uncomfortable, you are doing it consistently. And when we create sustainable impact, we are creating more room for greater generosity and greater generosity means deeper and more meaningful relationships. And we can just continue to do what we are doing even better. So I think the simple answer is not doing as much and doubling down what you're what you're doing really well. And I think that that's where I struggle with productivity, because I'm like, Are the word productive? Because it means so it means more, and I don't think we need more on our plates.

Julia Campbell: 9:12

I totally agree. I love Well, I have kind of an addiction to quote unquote, productivity books. But I agree, I think it's not about producing more. It's not about quantity. It's about quality. It's about spending time in the right areas on the right things. So in that vein, you know, sort of while I have you here, when do you think executive directors should look to hire if you founded a nonprofit? Or even if you're a marketing person of one, when do you know that it might be time to take some things off your plate?

Rachel Bearbower: 9:50

Well probably immediately

Julia Campbell: 9:52

Probably immediately. Yes, I think I can take this advice as well.

Rachel Bearbower: 9:58

I think it's also important to with not only understanding, like what your organization does well, but what can you as a leader do well, and where is your zone of genius? I think that we keep trying to wear all of the hats, but we don't look good. And all of the hats. I mean, I actually look good and pretty in a lot of hats. But that's, that's Biden

Julia Campbell: 10:19

but I get it hats,

Rachel Bearbower: 10:21

But we should not be wearing all of the hats. We should pick our favorite ones. What's your zone of genius? Stay in that lane, and then find someone. And I think this is where we sometimes go wrong with our hiring. We hire someone who, you know, we think is going to, like maybe doesn't know as much as us, or we're going to teach all the things. I want to hire someone who is smarter, and faster and better at whatever it is that I want to hire them for. Can I write a fundraising letter? Absolutely. Is there someone out there who can write it even better? Yes, I want that person.

Julia Campbell: 11:09

So figuring out your strengths, and your zone of genius, which I love to say zone of genius, and how can it really best fit with other people's zone of genius? And what they do best? Sort of like for me, I my taxes are not my zone of genius. Unfortunately, you know, I can't do everything myself, editing a podcast, not my zone of genius. Yeah, really figuring out where you can create more impact by taking those kinds of things off your plate. So we know I mean, anyone listening to the podcast, like there never seems to be enough time. And I don't doesn't matter if you are consultant or if you are working a full time job. But I work with so many nonprofit development and marketing directors and they're often juggling Marketing and Development at once full time or if you're an IDI, you're juggling all the things. So what are some of your favorite time saving tips to work smarter? Not harder. Give us as many as or as few as you want?

Rachel Bearbower: 12:17

Yeah. So what I'm always trying to teach is to create some clearly defined systems. Okay, so the systems within your organization like, and when I say systems, I don't actually mean like all of the technology. I literally mean like, how do you operate? How do you as a human operate? How do you stay organized? How do you manage your calendar? How do you manage your operations, all of those pieces are essential to running an organization. And if any of those are out of alignment, then like chaos ensues. And so really clearly defining what your systems are, and using them, but then also having that flexibility for them to evolve as you evolve. And, you know, actually one of my something that I actually teach inside the, the challenge is creating these boundaries. And we always talk about boundaries, but creating boundaries for the start, and the finish of your day. And so I call it a sunup and sundown routine. And so if you think about your systems, okay, so you have kind of four main systems. So you have your calendar management, you have your project management, and you have your operations management systems, okay, so three different systems that kind of keep your organization going. And those are all kind of technology, technology based, okay. But then you have your executive management. And for most of us, most of us do our best work inside of software, like we are analog people, because we are people, we are human. Okay, so you have these three, technology, system based systems. And then you have your human based system. And there's always this friction between the technology and the analog. And so it's figuring out what is the balance and one of those things that I teach is creating your, your morning routine. And I'm not talking about you know, get up at 5am and do yoga. I'm not talking about that. No, yeah, no, don't do that. I mean, do that

Julia Campbell: 14:38

whatever routine you want. I agree with you.

Rachel Bearbower: 14:41

Yeah, go for it. But figure out, like how do you take the things that are inside your three systems and put them into an analog system? And for me, so most people that's writing are two lists. Okay. So how do you take the information that's Get in those systems and create an analog system. And then, so that's, that's your morning routine. So then you stay focused in that analog system throughout the day so that you aren't getting distracted by the systems by being in your email by being in your calendar. And then at the end of the day, creating that same routine, but opposite, taking all of the post it notes and the, you know, the notes that you wrote in your calendar or on your, you know, in your notebook, and on your to do list and uploading them into the software that is designed to help you do your job better. So it's a Sunak, creating that digital to analog system, and then a sundown that analog to digital routine. So by doing that, you're creating these very clear boundaries of like, stop and start to your day, instead of just trying to work all the freaking time. We can't do that. We're already burned out, we're already talking about how we can't do more. Like we got to stop and start our day.

Julia Campbell: 16:05

So I have a question for you. I'm taking notes because I'm, you know, a solo, I wouldn't say solopreneur. But I'm a solo person running my own business. And the boundaries piece gets very fuzzy. And I know for a lot of us, especially when we work from home, there are fewer boundaries, like I've worked from home for a very long time now, like 13 years now. So I do have, you know, my office, I can close my door, I can shut down my computer. I'm actually you know, very good about not checking email at night, I've gotten those habits, and I've kind of gotten into the shutdown. And I love that what is it some some up and some down routine? But for those of us that have difficulty saying no, and creating those boundaries, do you have tips for us? Like how can we tackle this always on culture? And how can we tackle those constant slack notifications and the boss emailing us on Sunday? Or how can we even just tackle the guilt that we feel? Maybe not working on projects after hours?

Rachel Bearbower: 17:13

Yeah, so we are in a culture where it's, you feel like you always have to be on I worked. While I was building my organization, I was also working in another nonprofit, and I was working at a humane society. And so I felt like if I wasn't working, I was literally like animals would die because I was not working. That is some serious pressure. And when you are doing the kind of work that you do, I know that there are so many incredible organizations out there that are providing just amazing services and literally changing people's lives. Yeah, at the cost of their own. And I think that it's so important for your work is important. It is always going to be important. But who's going to take on that work? If you can't? And are you really doing your best work? I say all of that. And yet at the same time, we still keep doing because we are giving people we have these, you know, these servant hearts that just want to keep giving. And so I think that kind of goes back to the very first thing we're talking about, which is organizations that do really well are really, really focused on what they do well. And I think so many of the organizations that kind of are just like hobbies going and like, never have time wearing all the hats, is because you're trying to be all things to all people. And I think when you can get really, really clear on what your goals are. It makes saying no, a lot easier. Because if you don't know what your goals are, then you're like, I can do that event on a Tuesday night even though I was planning to go out with my friends that I haven't seen in two years. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. What if you knew that you? You weren't, you know, going to that event is not your focus? Like that's not what you should be doing? It's like, you know what, I can't do that tonight. I we're focused on this, going to that that event is not is not what I need to do tonight, you know, being able to say no, or when a board member, you know, brings up this great idea. And you're like, you know what? Great idea, but not what we're focused on right now. We're focused on this.

Julia Campbell: 19:35

Great idea. We'll table it.

Rachel Bearbower: 19:37

Yeah. It's also deciding what is best for you figuring out what your non negotiables are. Is it picking your kids up from school? Is it taking your mom to physical therapy? Is that having lunch with your grandma once a week? What are your non negotiables that feed your soul? prioritize those first, then understandable What your energy blocks are. So when do you work best? I had a concussion a year ago, and I'm still navigating. It turned my world upside down, I had to relearn all of my productivity system, like I had to relearn them, because my brain is literally wired different now. So I use, like, my focus time was like 7am to 11am. And like, that's when I got my best work done. Now, if I have like a meeting at noon, I stress until noon, and then I have used up all my energy, stressing about the meeting, I have the meeting, and then I'm just like, exhausted. So then, great, I've got one meeting done. So what used to work doesn't work as well. Actually, my time when I am just like in flow is later in the afternoon. So that is very different. And my schedule is not designed for that. And I also need more sleep, because my brain just takes longer to recoup. And so by figuring all of that out, figuring out what your energy blocks are, what are your boundaries, like not working past 6pm, I am having a couple of days where I don't have meetings, deciding what those are for you. And layering that into your calendar. That also helps when someone's like, Hey, can you go to an event after work? You're like, Nope, no, that is a boundary.

Julia Campbell: 21:33

And there gonna be a future you I always think about future me. I don't remember I was probably on and I was talking to you about this earlier, Jenny Blake and her fabulous book free time. But her podcast also called free time, but think about future you. So when I say yes to an event on a weeknights, future me hates me because they're like, oh, gosh, I just want to put on pajamas, weeknights, I want to be with my kids and watch TV and just, you know, do nothing like weeknights are are tough, especially coming out of the pandemic. So I agree with you think about future you. What would you say? Does an 8pm event on a Thursday sound good? Or not? Because you're just gonna have to cancel.

Rachel Bearbower: 22:24

Yep, I think the other important thing to that is like, knowing that like if you don't

Julia Campbell: 22:29

knowing that exactly, if you don't know that, you're going to constantly say yes to things.

Rachel Bearbower: 22:33

Yeah. And so and then starting to say it out loud, like the first time that somebody was like, Hey, can you do a meeting on a Tuesday, and I was like, getting the words out of my mouth. I was like, I don't do meetings on Tuesday, like, Oh, no problem, when would be

Julia Campbell: 22:46

one thing I always understand. People understand.

Rachel Bearbower: 22:50

That's incredible. So seeing those out loud, saying those things out loud, like not only reinforces it to you, but then reinforces it to everyone around you.

Julia Campbell: 22:59

I also think that even if you are not in charge of your schedule, like if you work for a supervisor and Executive Director, if you explain that your do better work in the afternoon, and you just want to do email or admin or stuff in the morning. I mean, for me, mornings are the most productive, I think, I don't know if that's true for the majority of us. But for me is the mornings are most productive. So I've worked, you know, I've worked as a development director, I've worked as a director of development in marketing. And I would always tell my boss, like the morning is the most productive time for me when I can write grants, when I can write appeal letters, when I can get that email newsletter out when I can really focus on strategy and that kind of thing. So if we need, why don't we meet after lunch, because if we meet in the morning, you'll give me a task list of 10 dozen things, and it will kind of like derail me. So I would love to like work on my work. And then we could meet at maybe noon or afternoon. And even just advocating for myself like that. I think a lot of my supervisors, you know, respected that and said, Oh, fine, that's great. Like, I do my best work in the morning, too, or they appreciate the honesty and also the boundary setting, but also that you know, when you do your best work, because I would hope that we work in an environment where everyone's lifting each other up to do their best work, I would hope.

Rachel Bearbower: 24:25

100% And if you're an executive director, and you're managing a team, have a conversation with your team, get their buy in. Do we just not have meetings before noon? Or do we have a full day that like we don't do meetings? Meetings? Yeah, company policy, like, oh my gosh,

Julia Campbell: 24:41

because as we know, meetings mean work. So like, you go to a meeting, you get 95 things to do. And then if you're in meetings all day, I mean, I've had this happen client meetings all day. I have a stack of work, but then I need to actually do the work that came from the meetings. Yes. So you can and just meeting after meeting after meeting, because it's just going to constantly pile the work on. But something else that you talked about that I thought was really interesting, you talk about building resilience. I just think this is such an important topic because, you know, we experienced a collective trauma, we're still experiencing it with the pandemic. So how can we build this resilience? How can we get our mojo back? Like, how can we get our motivation back in our productivity back?

Rachel Bearbower: 25:28

So I think you've just hit on something that has taken me a really long time to understand. When we think about resilience, resilience isn't building back, it's not getting back to where we were, it's choosing to bravely move forward, even though you're headed in a direction that you, you might not know where you're going to end up. And I really, really, really liked this idea that we are most resilient. When in community,

Julia Campbell: 26:04

We are most resilient when in community,

Rachel Bearbower: 26:08

When in community, we think about resilience has become this like buzzword of like a thing you have to be, you know, you have to do it on your own resilience has to come from within. And I do believe that there's an element of truth to that. But I also believe that resilience, like if you are feeling alone and afraid and isolated and unclear of what direction to go in, you're not going to figure it out by just like looking inward, you're going to go to your friend who has been there before, you're going to go to your family who is going to support you. So we are most resilient when we are in community. And I actually looked up the opposite of resilience. Because, you know, nonprofits or Executive Director, people, like we're trying to be resilient. But what is the opposite of that, and the opposite is rigid, frail, and inflexible. I was hearing those words. And I was like, you know, we we think about our organizations, as these, these organizations that have come out of the pandemic with so much resilience. And yet, at the same time, we are so stuck in our ways, and we have to keep doing things the same way. And we are inflexible, and refusing to change. And you know, what that creates? Fragile.

Julia Campbell: 27:40

Right? And flexibility causes breakage,

Rachel Bearbower: 27:45

I think within the pandemic, you know, there was this kind of like banding together and working together and creating these, like coming up with these creative solutions to these short term problems. And I think that there's just incredible stories. And I think there's so much value in that. And I think there's also so much value in the long term effects of being in community and being resilient together to heal from trauma.

Julia Campbell: 28:10

Oh, that's just there's so much to unpack there. Absolutely love, love what you said. I agree, I think that we use the terms like productivity and resilience in these almost defensive ways. And these sort of traditionalist ways that are kind of outdated. And we need to embrace them and take them back, and really unpack them and think about what they mean to us, and especially to the nonprofit sector, which is so different from a lot of other sectors. And I know that you've written the four things that most successful nonprofit organizations and successful EDS have in common. So just to kind of tie it all up. Can you tell us a little bit about these four things?

Rachel Bearbower: 28:56

Yeah, absolutely. It's so they're very simple, and they're probably things that you are already working on. But the first one is having a clear fundraising offer. That goes back to kind of everything that we were saying, like getting super clear on why you are the only organization who can do what you can do and help your donors understand the impact that they can make. donors don't want to fund process. They want to fund impact. So tell them what they're funding, get clear on that fundraising offer, show up consistently. This is where a lot of organizations struggle is they, you know, are all excited and they you know, get everything ready and get everything going and they're good for like a month or so and then they just fall off social media or fall off like sending out that newsletter. Fall off communicating with our donors. Showing up consistently means setting up the habits and routines to be able to do that so that you are feeding into your systems to be able to do that. So show up consistently, set up your systems and technology, figure out what they are. Remember, systems doesn't necessarily mean technology, there's, there's lots of different systems inside of your organization. And then the technology side, there's no technology that is perfect. Like, there's a lot that can do some really incredible things. But just pick something, literally just pick something and stick with it, and figure out how you are going to work with it. And then the, the last one that goes back to that resiliency, which is lean on your support system, you are human. And if you are feeling isolated, if you are feeling kind of just like you don't have your footing, a conversation with a friend or a conversation with a mentor can go a really long way. But you shouldn't feel like you have to figure this out on your own. And there is so much knowledge and so much variance. And a lot of that was what I'm trying to do inside of my community, with executive directors, but find your community and lean on them. So those are, those are my four things.

Julia Campbell: 31:12

I love that. So tell us about your productivity challenge. And where people can learn more about you. And connect with you.

Rachel Bearbower: 31:21

Yes, so you can head to smalltalkstrategies.com/challenge. Very simple.

Julia Campbell: 31:30

It is a great animated gifs just not to interrupt you. But yeah, the gif game is strong with Rachel.

Rachel Bearbower: 31:38

And I spent far too much time finding the perfect gif.

Julia Campbell: 31:41

I do too. I love gifs.

Rachel Bearbower: 31:43

It's important.

Julia Campbell: 31:45

It's very important that I love there was one Back to the Future one anyway with talk that I really loved. So just so you know, someone pays attention. But anyway,

Rachel Bearbower: 31:55

I appreciate that. But yeah, head to the challenge. It's free. It's a choose your own adventure, you can do the daily challenge with five challenges five days, or one challenge per week. And I hang out on Instagram. So that is where I'm at I don't do most of my teaching on on social media anymore. Most of my teaching is happening on my email list. So if you're not on my email list, there's about 1000 ways you can get on it, sign up for anything. But that's where I do a lot of my teaching and then inside of my community, but I do show up on social media to kind of just share what my thoughts are, share the gross things that my dogs bring from the field.

Julia Campbell: 32:39

I love your reels. It's @smallshopstrategies on Instagram

Rachel Bearbower: 32:45

@smallshopstrategies, and then I'm also on LinkedIn. Sometimes I try to be maybe I'll be better in the future, maybe create that consistency. And I'm just at Rachel Bearbower.

Julia Campbell: 32:55

Fantastic. Rachel. Thank you so much. Oh, and your dog is sleeping. I can see. Oh, so she's there. Is that one of your rescues?

Rachel Bearbower: 33:07

It is it is Morty. He is my 100 pound lap dog.

Julia Campbell: 33:11

Oh, wonderful. Ah, she's so sweet. So you can't see this on video. That's the perk of being host. But Morty just looks completely comfy. And so like just passed out, like tired.

Rachel Bearbower: 33:24

Unimpressed.

Julia Campbell: 33:26

Unimpressed. He's reclaiming his time. I love it.

Rachel Bearbower: 33:31

Yes he is taking care of himself.

Julia Campbell: 33:33

Okay. Well, everyone, I will put the links in the shownotes. To the challenge to the website to the Instagram. Rachel, this was fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much.

Rachel Bearbower: 33:44

Thank you so much for having me, Julia.

Julia Campbell: 33:53

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram@juliacampbell77. Keep changing the world you nonprofit unicorn