This episode is sponsored by Qgiv, a comprehensive fundraising platform trusted by over 20,000 fundraisers. The Qgiv team understands that fundraising isn’t always an easy job. To help, they recently surveyed fundraising professionals and donors to create a soon to be released report, The Sustainable Giving Report. This report explores how the economy, staffing issues, declining donor numbers, and more have impacted nonprofit teams. To learn how you can build more sustainable fundraising revenue and advocate for data-backed change, click here to be notified when the report is released and receive your copy!
You might have heard the phrase, “Do more with less,” once or twice before, and if you work in the nonprofit sector, you’ve likely heard that phrase dozens of times. It’s a fundraising professional’s mantra!
When you’re in “survival mode” it can be hard to make time to fine-tune your fundraising campaigns and raise more money—not just for your mission, but for the administrative costs associated with your organization.
This pressure (that often feels like a rice cooker ready to burst) can impact your job satisfaction and lead to high turnover rates within your organization, affecting your overall wellbeing as a change maker and your nonprofit’s bottom line.
In this episode, we discuss the hard topics:
Wendy Mercurio is the Content and Education Specialist at Qgiv. As a former Development Officer and Development Director, Wendy draws upon her nonprofit experience to create informative and inspiring content for the Qgiv audience and beyond. Wendy’s professional efforts have focused on fundraising events, corporate relations, donor acquisition, and donor relations. In her spare time, Wendy can be found spending time with her pup, Alfie, cooking up a new recipe and spending time on the lake she lives by.
Connect with Wendy on LinkedIn
Get the new report: https://go.qgiv.com/research-study-subscription
About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:
Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.
She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media
Hey, real quick. I've developed a brand new free resource just for you. It's called the nonprofit social media Content Planner. This brand new planner will help you plan, develop, and manage a year's worth of useful and usable written or other forms of content that your audience will love. You can just text the word planner to 3377 or go to nonprofitcontentententententplanner.com. Grab your free copy today. All right, on to the episode. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit, industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Really excited to be here with you today, and the topic is making fundraising more sustainable and healthy. So all of you, I'm sure every single person listening to this has heard the phrase do more with less. And if you work in this sector, you've likely heard that phrase dozens of times, and it is kind of like the nonprofit professionals mantra, but with rising costs and the great resignation shaking up our teams, we know individual donor numbers are declining. We all read that giving USA report. We face increased pressure to raise more money and do even more with fewer resources. So today we're going to discuss how the economy has impacted philanthropy, how we can really increase and sustain the wellness of nonprofit teams, how to increase donor trust. Are donors still willing to financially support their favorite causes despite inflation? And how can we retain and sustain fundraising staff and build more scalable programs? My guest today is Wendy Mercurio, and Wendy's the content education specialist at Qgiv. We do love QGive. Big friends of the podcast. As a former development officer and development director, wendy draws upon her nonprofit experience to create informative and inspiring content for the Qgiv audience and beyond. Wendy's professional efforts have focused on fundraising events, corporate relations, donor acquisition, and donor relations. And in her spare time, Wendy can be found spending time with her pup Alfie, cooking up a new recipe and spending time on the lake that she lives by. And I have to hear about what lake that is. So, Wendy, welcome to the podcast. Yes, thank you so much for having me. Yes. And Wendy's in Rhode Island. Very close to Massachusetts, where I live. And when we're recording this, it's very hot here. So you're on a lake. So that must be amazing. Yes, it's the best this time of year. You can't beat it. It's Oak Swamp Reservoir in Johnston, Rhode Island. That's where I am from. I love it here. Yeah, we're basically neighbors, though. Yes, it's really not far when you think about it. Massachusetts and Rhode Island are so small. I always think about other states and how people are like, I live 5 hours away from the nearest town and I thought, oh, no, I don't do that. So you're here. I want to talk a little bit about your journey. But I do want to say, just to start the podcast, you're here to discuss the findings of Qgiv's new study, which is the Sustainable Giving Report, which for all my listeners you can find at my website. If you just go intogive you'll be redirected to the report. But Wendy, I want you to tell us a little bit about you and your journey and how you got into nonprofit work. Yes, thank you so much for that lovely introduction. So, as you mentioned, I currently am the content and education specialist on the Qgiv team. And Qgiv is a company that provides digital fundraising tools to thousands of nonprofits in the United States and Canada. But at Qgiv, I have the privilege of overseeing our educational content and our webinars and our research, which I'm really excited to chat about today. But prior to my time at Qgiv, as you mentioned, I served as the development officer and development director for a few local organizations where I am from in Teeny, Rhode Island. And I found myself in the nonprofit sector as so many do, which was sort of by accident. My first fundraising position sort of found its way to me when I was really young and really needing an opportunity and the stars completely aligned. I really fell in love with the work, the missions that I was helping to move forward, the people in the sector, and the impact that I was having on my community. That's really great. I love that. I do feel that a lot of my guests say that they fell into the work accidentally and I think the stars have all aligned for a lot of us and we're just meant to be doing this work. And I really believe that. So today we're going to discuss the Sustainable Giving report. I will put all the links in the show notes if you want to grab your free copy. I want to hear about the reasons behind this report. Like why did Qgiv commission this study? Commission this report? What were the gaps that they wanted to fill? So we noticed some concerning trends across the sector and we really felt like they needed to be addressed. And they needed to be addressed. Right now, donor numbers are declining, a recession is looming, the cost of living is constantly increasing, and the overall wellness and the state of fundraisers on nonprofit teams was really concerning. And that was just a few things that we were really looking forward to dive into and create tangible takeaways for. So we wanted to gauge what our fundraisers were noticing in the sector, the strategies that they implemented during the many challenges of the last three years, and to better understand how donors are reacting to economic uncertainty and engaging with the causes that they care most about. So by understanding donor preferences and digging into the wellness of the nonprofit sector, we hope to provide these tangible takeaways for our readers that inspire change and action among nonprofit leaders, fundraisers, and their teams. So, for you and for the whole Qgiv team, what were some of the most notable findings? Maybe something that surprised you? As you can imagine, when our surveys closed and we were able to dig through our donors and our fundraisers responses, we were so excited to see what our respondents had to say. Some responses were on par with what we expected, but there was definitely some shocking stats as well. And there's really so much juicy information in this report and we are only going to scratch the surface today. So I encourage listeners to download the full report. But with that being said, the findings that I found the most shocking and impactful are one that donors are prioritizing their charitable giving. Most donors will make cuts on entertainment or dining out before they're changing their charitable giving patterns. We also found that overall fundraising revenue and overall donor count is declining, which we unfortunately expected to see. But we saw that over 80% of donors have continued to make monetary gifts to different nonprofits over the last three years. We also found that the impact a fundraiser believes they are making in their organization's mission are the top factors that lead to their job satisfaction. And pay and other career aspirations are the top reasons that a fundraiser would leave their job. We also found that fundraisers need additional resources to meet their goals. And I'm sure most fundraisers right now are listening, saying, duh Wendy. But I really hope that this statistic can inspire nonprofit leaders. They're not alone. I know they're not alone. And I really hope that this stat can inspire nonprofit leaders to change their minds. Right. We know that there's some folks who may think resources such as technology, more staff, professional development, so many other really important resources, they might think that they're unnecessary or they're not critical to achieve their mission. We saw that almost 85% of fundraising respondents answered that they could use more fundraising resources, and 75% answered that they are overwhelmed with their workload. I know it hurts a little, doesn't it? Yes. It's not surprising, but yeah. And so ensuring that fundraising staff has the tools they need to succeed is going to impact fundraising results. Finally, I think one of the most shocking stats for me was that donor retention rates were unknown by 43% of fundraisers that responded. Retaining and stewarding donors is so crucial to ensure the future success of all fundraising efforts. And the costs associated with obtaining a new donor is ten to 20 times more expensive than retaining your existing donor. So donor retention strategies can not only cut down on your organization's acquisition costs, but can help you build reliable sources of revenue, which is really invaluable, especially during periods of economic instability. And I teach a lot about digital marketing, email marketing, social media, which people tend to think it's focused on acquisition, but it's actually a really great way to steward your donors and cultivate them and build more trust with them. So I do feel like there's so much hype and talk around how do we get new donors, how do we get in front of new audiences? But what are we doing with the people that already know us and love us and have given to us? And how are we building deeper relationships with them? So clearly, this is something that we need to talk about. What I love about the report is that you provide like you have decided to explore two different viewpoints, the donor viewpoint and the fundraiser viewpoint. So what did you find? What are some key takeaways, and how did that decision come to be? So we really wanted to gauge not only what fundraisers were doing, but how donors were responding. And I think that there can oftentimes be a disconnect right, where you can think, oh, well, this is what my donors want, and it might not necessarily be the case. And so to have the takeaways that were from both perspectives, we thought were really impactful and important. Exactly. And how do you feel that the last three years have impacted fundraisers? What were some of the things that the report told you about? Maybe the last three years or even just the last couple of years? So inflation and economic uncertainty have impacted donors and by extension, nonprofits. And we saw this in our findings. And so since 2020, inflation in the US. Has increased a total of 16 point something percent. It's crazy. And so half of donors we surveyed have had their charitable giving negatively impacted by inflation, and 44% of fundraisers noticed that they saw a decrease in fundraising revenue as well. But despite this, donors still want to give to the causes they care about. It just might look a little different than prior. So when you say it looks differently, what are some of the examples you're seeing? Or what did some of the donors tell you? Yeah, so we saw that even when financial times are tough, donors still want to support you. We found that over 80% of donors continue to make their monetary gifts to different nonprofits, despite the state of the economy. In fact, actually 75% of donors reported that inflation has negatively impacted their finances over the last three years, and 80% of donors are still giving. So donors are prioritizing their charitable giving. And that's really exciting to see. I think we saw that in COVID as well, where people's finances were negatively affected, but they knew that the need was so great and they felt even more connected maybe to the causes that they cared about. So that's on us. Everyone listening. It's on us to convey that, yes, there's still a need. Yes, we know that the economy and that's the problem, I think that we have is when the economy goes into a tailspin, nonprofit services, there's increased demand. So we have increased demand for services and we have so much more on our plate and so many more people calling us for help. And I think our donors really need to understand that times are tough for everyone, but the need is not going away. The need hasn't really changed. In fact, it might even be greater than it was before. Yeah, absolutely. And I also really encourage folks to really understand the importance of a thank you. Right, during a period economic instability. Really getting back to the fundamentals of strong donor retention is so important and understanding that it's all types of gifts, right? It's monetary gifts. It's in kind, it's time. And it's all of those things, all of those factors are crucial for your organization's. Long term donor retention, appreciating all gifts that we're receiving. Yes. And lynn wester actually talks a lot about this. She talks about the importance of not really just being like, okay, we're not going to thank $5 donors, but we are going to thank $15 donors. Like trying to scale it a little bit so that at least someone gets a touch point. Everybody gets a touch point, no matter where they came from, no matter how much they gave. Of course, if they're giving whatever a major gift might be for your organization, you might want to go above and beyond. But to not send a thank you for someone just because they sent you $5 is clearly not going to be sustainable and it's not going to lead to sustainable fundraising revenue. This actually leads into my next question. The report found that 58% of donors believe the sector is trustworthy. Only 58%. Like, we want 100%, right? And I look at the edelman trust barometer, and for 2023, they do an entire national study around trust of the general public, around organizations, institutions, media, government. And they actually found that only 50% of the general everyday american trusts nonprofits to do the right thing, which just hurts my heart. So we know that this feeling of trust has really dropped or it's even plateaued. But what are some ways that we can change this? Are there any strategies in the report that you're giving that talk to this level of trust and how we can increase it? How can we do better? Yeah. So we found that over 80% of supporters believe the nonprofits that they contribute to are trustworthy. Oh, I love that. So it's like the whole sector is not trustworthy. But my nonprofits that I give to are trustworthy. That's so interesting. Yes. And so yeah, it drops down to 58%, as you mentioned, for the whole sector. And I think this says a lot. Right. There could be a lot of reasons that donors may have less trust in the sector overall. And I think proximity plays a large factor in this. So this could be physical distance, this could be social distance. So for physical distance, this might be the trust a donor has in their local nonprofit versus a larger nonprofit or an international organization that they're just not as familiar with. And then for social distance right. This could be giving to your friend's peer to peer campaign, or you have a family member that works at a local organization, and so you feel that closeness with the organization. So I really questioned how do organizations and the sector overcome these feelings of distrust and how do they create that closeness? And I think the answer really revolves around communication and how nonprofits should possibly follow the example that's set by for profit brands, that they're bringing these supporters inside their organization and they're showing what an average day looks like. For one of their staff members with a short video, or they're hosting a Facebook or an Instagram Live or something along those lines, just to bring your supporters in and create that trust and create that closeness. We also mentioned in the report potentially asking your donors to cover administrative costs, which can be a little scary, I'm definitely going to admit that. But by kind of asking these donors to get close and to support your Doers right, and discussing administrative functions and costs and responsibilities, this can increase the transparency of your organization and in turn, hopefully increase the trust that your donors have with your organization as well. I just think the way we handle administrative costs and quote unquote, overhead is really backwards because we do not ask when we go to Target, I don't say how much of this goes to the marketing staff. We don't ask that question. Actually, we probably should ask better questions when we're purchasing things to see how much actually goes back to the people that make them. But that's another whole topic. But we don't ask those questions. If I'm on Amazon, it's like, okay, I want to buy this bathing suit, all right? I don't nitpick how much goes into the marketing and does Amazon pay their servers that propel their website? It's just we just don't do this to any other sector. And I really think that that is the fault of a lot of negative media coverage. I'm a journalist by heart. I'm not blaming the media. But I think it gets good headlines when you say, oh, this nonprofit spent all of this money on front office staff. Well, what if they really need the front office staff to answer phones? I worked for a domestic violence shelter. We needed front office staff to answer the hotline. That was one of our key services that we provided. So I agree with you. I just think that asking like quantifying or pulling out administrative costs can be scary for organizations. But I think as a sector, we need to make a stand as to what it really takes to run an organization. Like, we need electricity and printer ink and whatever else you might need to run your own organization. So I think that's an interesting point. So, one of the sections of the report, the third section has to do with building sustainable streams of revenue, which of course, because it's the sustainability report, so what does the study show? What can we do with this information? Yeah, so for this section on sustainable streams of revenue, we approach this topic kind of from two fronts. So the first one being fundraising events. This can really be a total suck of resources for a development team. And so we were really curious to learn how fundraising events have performed and changed the last few years and how donors were engaging with these events. And what we learned is that now is the time to elevate annual in person events. Donors we saw are excited to attend in person fundraising events. Again, one third of donors we surveyed answered that they prefer in person events. But over half of fundraisers answered that their annual events have not performed as well as they did in years prior. So we really think that the pandemic changed event experiences and expectations that donors are bringing. And they're looking for immersive, engaging and entertaining fundraising events that they can participate in in a variety of ways. So I think now is the time to reevaluate annual fundraising events and make sure they're aligned with your mission. I think that that's super, super important. And then for the second half of sustainable revenue streams, we also leaned into reoccurring gifts and donor retention. So poor donor retention leads to so many more resources being spent on capturing our new donors. But when talking about long term sustainability efforts of fundraising programs, this is obviously concerning, right? Especially with declining donor numbers and retention rates being at a historic low, I truly, truly believe that now is the time to focus on donor retention. So some takeaways that I would give to our listeners would be first and foremost to know your donor retention rate. As I mentioned earlier, 43% of fundraisers that responded to our survey, they were unsure of their donor retention rate, which was way higher than I expected. And I know that it can be easy when you're a busy fundraiser to kind of lose sight of donor retention, especially as we talked about earlier when there's this large focus on acquisition. But it's really, really crucial to know this stat and to measure it and to know the effectiveness of your efforts. And then I would also recommend that fundraising leaders allocate resources for their fundraisers to focus more time on retention. Over 50% of fundraisers that responded said that they spend zero to 25% of their work time on donor retention. And I've been saying that without a focus on donor retention, you're building a castle out of sand instead of bricks. It's not sustainable and it's really not going to last. And I would also suggest that fundraisers implement strategies to cultivate reoccurring donors. So first, let's offer these supporters the ability to make these reoccurring gifts and to give at a variety of frequencies. And let's also implement strategies to cultivate reoccurring donors. These donors that give on a regular basis are the key to the sustainability of fundraising programs. So let's create a communication strategy that lets donors know the advantages and the impacts of their reoccurring gifts for your organization and then let's report back to them on a regular basis and celebrate the wins that they've helped make possible. That's pretty shocking to me that 50% of fundraisers spend zero to 25% of their time on donor retention. That just shows me that also is contributing to the lack of trust, it's contributing to low giving, it's contributing to all of these different things that we're seeing. And I think that's just due to a culture. We need a culture shift in the sector. We need a culture shift at each organization that puts a priority on talking to donors. I'm not talking about trying to send them automated emails. You can do that, but you can pick up the phone, you can send a thank you note. What I've seen with my clients is that there's this perception that if you can't talk to all 10,000 donors, you can't even talk to one. And I just see that as such a missed opportunity. If you can write ten thank you notes a week, that's fine. Done is better than perfect. You're not going to be able to hand reach out with a calligraphied screed or scroll to every single donor, but that doesn't mean you can't reach some. So I see it's sort of that fight against perfection and we want to do the same thing for all donors, or maybe we want to reach all donors on the same day and we just can't do it. So those are some really fantastic strategies. I'm really surprised about the in person events because I love in person events. I'm definitely going to more of them, but I'm pleased to see that donors also are seeing that. But like you said, we can't just take what worked in 2019 and put it onto 2023. That's what I think we're trying to do. And the entire world has changed. The sector has changed. Dynamic consumers have changed, owners have changed. And we need to adapt to that and change what we're doing. We can't just take these old strategies and expect them to be immediately able to be transferred into the new reality that we're living in. What I also like about the report is that it gives us these strategies, it gives us this data, but it really talks about the increased pressures that fundraising professionals are facing. So what did you find, or even what do you think that what can be done to address these increased pressures? So this section I was so eager to dive into, especially as a former fundraiser, I know how consuming and challenging a fundraising role can be. Also from talking with peers in the sector, I know a lot of fundraisers are doing it, all right, folks are managing fundraising events, they're implementing campaigns, they're overseeing staff, they're creating social media content, focusing on outreach acquisition, writing grants, organizing volunteers. And there's so many competing priorities. And it can be totally, totally overwhelming. And oftentimes this is being done by a few underpaid staff members. So nonprofit staff members are often working against the expectation that being underpaid is standard practice or expected. And so we wanted to know what can be done about this. My goal was to stop fundraisers from going gray prematurely, but also stop fundraisers from leaving the profession prematurely because of all these factors that are leading to burnout. And so some factors that some takeaways that I would recommend would be, as we talked about earlier, educate your supporters on the incredible work your staff is doing and consider asking your donors to contribute to the cost of administrative salaries. This very taboo topic, as we talked about earlier, but regular employee spotlights on social media, spotlights in your newsletter or different mailings, can really help your supporters understand who the Doers are behind the work that they're supporting. We found that 25% of donors believe that nonprofit staff should receive below average or no compensation for their work. I know it hurts. And to help overcome this perception, I think it's really crucial to talk about your staff and the important work that they're doing. And this isn't something that needs to be added into every fundraising appeal, but it is something that you can do periodically to increase support or engagement and subtly convey how important you as a fundraiser and your staff are. Also found that 36% of donors are willing to cover administrative costs and 52% were open to the idea and were undecided. I totally recognize that this is scary to ask donorists to cover administrative costs, but my hope is with gradual and strategic education on the importance of your staff, your donor will be open to this idea and excited about it. As a sector, we don't talk about administrative costs, which can lead to distrust, as we mentioned earlier. Also, choosing to share the importance of your staff and being transparent with your administrative costs can accomplish a number of things right. It can result in more revenue that will go to staff salaries and compensation, helping to reduce turnover. We found that 34% of donors are noticing turnover at their organization that they support and 60% of those that noticed are concerned about nonprofit staff turnover. So by investing in your staff, you're inspiring confidence in your organization. Yeah, absolutely. And what you said about just educating, educating your donor and educating the general public about the important work that you do and sharing stories of what the staff does. So I have a client, they're Rosie's Place in Boston and they are a shelter. They provide probably 30 different services but they call themselves their main overview, their main vision is they are a safe haven for any woman, anytime, no questions asked when they need it. Like you come there, you can come there. However many times they don't ask you questions, you can come there for services. And they share so many fantastic stories of the people that work there. They share stories of the receptionist who greets you when you come in, the stories of the social workers who take your information, or the career counselor, the people that work in the food pantry, the people that work serving the meals. All of these fantastic stories and the more you can create this holistic version of your organization, not pieces that can be pulled out, not sort of pieces that can be piecemealed together, you really all have to work together to create this experience for clients and to create your vision. Their vision is to provide every woman who needs it with dignity and to lift them up and to make them feel that they are worthy. So to create that vision, they really do need all of these different pieces. Like can you imagine if when you got in there, there was just sort of a checklist or like a clipboard and no one greeted you and no one talked to you? It's all part of their vision, creating this. And their donors really understand that and completely support it. And I think it's on us. I know fundraisers have so much to do, but it really is on us to educate our donors about the important pieces of all the work that we do and how it kind of all fits together because they will respond. They just oftentimes donors don't know what we know, right? They don't know that all of this work is incredibly important. They don't know that the buses support the Boys and Girls Clubs and we have to support buses because how are the kids going to get to the after school program? It's just a matter of not necessarily educating, but just showcasing and highlighting the different pieces of our work. And I think we just get so focused on client stories, which are fantastic, but we should be telling stories and sharing all of this other wonderful information with the people that fund our mission, with our stakeholders, with our supporters. So I love that the report is really showcasing some of the gaps that we have, but I love that it's also showcasing the donor's perspective because. It's not that they're not bad people. They just don't know what we know, and they want to know what we know. And that's the key here, is we're preaching to the choir. We're preaching to people that want to know what we know. So why don't we give them more of this information? Yeah. I love how you mentioned the importance of staff. If there was one thing that I've learned, how important every single member of an organization is to make the mission possible, right. And to change the lives of the clients. And so if leaders can advocate for staff, I would also encourage that as well. Changing the world is not easy, and doing that without a support system is basically impossible. We found an interesting stat that 70% of fundraisers answered that their department is never or only occasionally staffed properly, which is a lot higher than I think we were expecting. And so without the proper number of development staff, raising large funds is exhausting, and it's going to lead to burnout really quickly. My last question is, really, where do you think that really small bootstrapping nonprofit should start first? Where should they prioritize this information in the report? Yeah, I think that those folks should definitely stay focused on their mission. Right. I think it's super easy for mission creep to kind of happen at those early stages of a young nonprofit. So identify your strategies, your target audience, and then set your goals and set up your fundraising plan that stays true to your mission, and it's going to help you get to where you need to be financially and set those obtainable goals. Right. Focus on fundraising growth. That is realistic. And I would also say celebrate your wins. Right. I think it's so important not to get lost in the hustle and bustle of everyday nonprofit to do lists and things you have to get done and really celebrate the accomplishments and the milestones that are being achieved. Well, Wendy, thank you so much for being here today. To anyone that wants to download the report, dive into the findings. Go to slash Qgiv. That's Qgiv, and you will be directed to a place where you can download it. We love Qgiv. I love Qgiv. They're a fundraising platform, and you are trusted by over 20,000 fundraisers, which I love. So you clearly have some data, some meat to dive into into reports like this. But where else can people learn about you, Wendy? Connect with you and learn more about Qgiv? Yeah. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Wendy Mercurio. But if this report or this type of content is of interest to you, I highly, highly recommend to also follow Qgiv on whatever social media you prefer. Not only will you find resources that I've helped produce, but you'll find some amazing resources that my incredibly awesome and talented team have put together as well. So definitely check out Qgiv on social media as well. Yes, I will put that in the show notes, and if you're finding this on social media, I will have tagged Qgiv in the post, so make sure you give them a follow. So, Wendy, thank you so much for being here, and I really appreciate you taking the time to share these insights. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell 77 keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.