The data on donor retention is not good. On average, over three quarters of new donors do not make a second gift. Also, the number of individual donors has dropped nearly 20 percent since the beginning of this century.
It is not difficult to believe that this large drop is connected to donors feeling unappreciated and even commoditized.
This purely transactional approach to donors is a particular turnoff to younger generations who are used to having lots of choices in everything they do, and need to be acknowledged and invited to become repeat donors.
In this episode, we talk about Allison's 3 steps to better donor relationships, and how to increase donor retention using available technology and tools.
Allison Fine is a pioneer in the use of technology for good. She is the author of four books on the topic, most recently, The Smart Nonprofit: Staying Human Centered in an Automated World with Beth Kanter. She is currently the President of Every.org, a nonprofit platform helping nonprofits raise more money while strengthening the relationship between causes and donors to create lasting change.
Connect with Allison
About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:
Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.
She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.
Hey, real quick. I've developed a brand new free resource just for you. It's called the nonprofit social media Content Planner. This brand new planner will help you plan, develop, and manage a year's worth of useful and usable written or other forms of content that your audience will love. You can just text the word planner to 3377 or go to nonprofitcontentententententplanner.com. Grab your free copy today. All right, on to the episode. Hello, and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit, industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I know that on this show we talk a lot about donor acquisition, getting new donors, converting new donors, using social media to convert your fans and followers into donors. But today we're going to take a little bit of a different tactic, and we're going to say, how can we be less transactional and more relational? And I have an expert here, a colleague and a friend of mine, longtime friend Allison Fine. And a lot of you are going to know the name Allison Fine, but I'll read her bio. Allison is a pioneer in the use of technology for good. She has actually been on the podcast before to talk about the smart nonprofit staying human centered in an automated world. Then she was on the podcast with Beth Cantor. She's the author of four books, and that's the most recent book. And she's currently the president of Every, which is a nonprofit platform helping nonprofits raise more money while strengthening the relationship between causes and donors to create lasting change. And Allison writes one of my favorite must read newsletters. It's on substack. It's called our next chapter. I will link to it in the show notes. And it's all about reproductive justice, sharing news and resources. And not just news and resources, but actual calls to action and ways that we can further the reproductive justice landscape and get stuff done, because it really needs to get done. So, Allison, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast again, and thank you so much for all of your work. Oh, Julia, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for having me. So tell me about your journey to Every and a little bit about what you do now in this position. So I met the co founders of Every last year in the fall, and it's just a phenomenal platform. Julia, these are two technologists who were trying to solve the problem of how could we move crypto donations to nonprofits, right. That they had donors who wanted to donate crypto and there wasn't an easy way for them to do it and they wanted to do good in the world. And they created this phenomenal platform that begins with the idea that we should start the conversation about facilitating fundraising through a nonprofit lens, right. Once we start there where every nonprofit is equal, right, that Black Sisters in Stem is as equal as say, the ACLU on our platform, the idea is to be able to move any kind of financial capital. And they began with crypto and then quickly moved to stocks and venmo and credit cards and bank and PayPal and everything. And we turned that capital into dollars and moved the dollars and the donors directly to nonprofits without charging any fees, right? So outside of the credit card fees, for instance, there's no charge to get set up on our platform. There's no charge for transactions on our platform. Our mission is to move money in friction free ways. And the technology and the mission just really spoke to me as just an incredible opportunity to really rethink fundraising. I love that. I also signed up on Every, and what I love about it is I get frequent newsletters. It's almost like social proof. It's like so and so started a fundraiser, so and so donated to this organization. Here's some organizations that you might be interested in. So I love the way that Every uses technology to connect me to causes that I might not have heard about. Is that one of sort of the pillars of the philosophy? There are two sides to it, right? So you're experiencing the donor side, which is very social. You set up your own profile, it shows what causes you've given to. You can create your own campaign to raise money for a cause that you care about and invite your friends. So hurrah that's all wonderful and social and joyful, which is what we want giving to be. And on the flip side, Julia, any of your listeners who are with nonprofit organizations, they need to come and create their profile on the site, right? We have the 1.2 million nonprofits in the IRS database that we can connect to. But you want to create your own profile and get your donors moving through our portal because it'll be a lot less expensive for you than any other fundraising technology that you're using. I think that it's so interesting because it's such a unique perspective and it has such a unique philosophy around fundraising. And I know today we're going to talk about how to not be a big box nonprofit and what that means, because I do think a lot of organizations have this philosophy that they want To Be The biggest and they Want To acquire the most donors, and they Want To Have The Most transactions and conversions. But we know the data on donor retention is pretty pitiful. So in a recent blog post that you wrote on TechSoup.org, you cited over three quarters of new donors do not make a second gift, and the number of individual donors has dropped nearly 20% since the beginning of this century. So what are you seeing? How can we possibly start to address this? One of the main reasons why I came to every Julia, because we want to fix what I call the leaky bucket problem. Right. So the leaky bucket is you put ten donors in, and by the time you get a year out, as you mentioned, you've only got two donors left. Right. And what do most organizations do? They throw more donors in because they're in this panic to fill up this bucket. And acquiring new donors is very expensive. The philosophy around focusing on acquisition is you spend more money to get those donors, but don't worry about it. You'll make money on them in the out years. Right. You'll make money in years two, three, and four, but the fact is they aren't there in years two, three, and four. So you've just lost money on acquisition, you've lost money on renewal, and you're in a panic to keep filling up the bucket. And my heart goes out to folks in development. The burnout rate is sky high and. People are leaving in droves, and I. Don'T blame them, right. Because the boards are completely focused and often the C suites on immediate money in the right. I've I've been on dozens of boards over my career, Julia. I have never had a conversation at the board level on donor retention. Never. Right. It's always on acquisition. It's always on how much money. Let's have more auctions, let's have more golf tournaments. Why aren't you raising more money right now? So this pressure on the immediate check writing has created this really short sighted and disastrous field. So in that way, that's how we end up with a field where thanking donors becomes the last thing that we think about instead of the first thing that we think about. Right. I've given 13 gifts this calendar year. 13 gifts. Julia big national oh, no, I don't. Want to hear this. I know. Painful. I'm going to make you hear it. Okay. One tax receipt that's oh, no. I know. I have such a similar experience. Right. How does that happen? It happens because we're measuring the wrong things. We're focused on the wrong things, and it has sucked all the joy out of giving. Of course, we don't come back to give a second gift. You've just treated me like an ATM machine. Right. So that's why I was thinking also. I love you say ATM machine. I mean, it's good that it's open 24/7. Right? That's good. But I don't have a conversation with my ATM machine and it doesn't bring me joy. How do you see the proliferation of digital tools as contributing to this problem. So it supersized it, right? It started with direct mail. It's not a new problem. Right. This goes back decades, but when it became easier to gather up thousands of names and mail them out, an industry was created with really bizarre measures. Julia, a measure of 3% response rate is success. What just happened to 97% of the people you just mailed to who were either annoyed or ignored it or pissed off, right. Digital supersedes that it gets even bigger, right, and easier and faster just to push a button. And we created norms. Juliet, like ask in every communication, send multiple times to people, and it's not human in any way. Now, on our last podcast together, when Beth and I were both here, we talked about the potential of using AI to rehumanize nonprofit work, right? Love it. And this is an opportunity in fundraising to do just that. If we can use AI to do things like reduce the amount of time on donor prospecting, customize thank you notes at scale for people, right? We know a lot about people from what we know internally, what we have on the web. The Rainforest Action Network used AI to customize the thank you and customize the first communication to donors and got eight times the number of people to become monthly donors as a result of that. Right? I mean, just that little tweak and the sense of we're delighted to have you here and you matter, and we know your name, supersized the contributions from those folks. Right. That's the future, in my mind, is using AI to rehumanize fundraising. I love that because as we were talking about before we hit record, I have been on chat GPT all day, just kind of hanging out and talking with it about how nonprofits can use AI, how can they use these tools, how can they use GPT for marketing and how can they use GPT for fundraising? And it actually gave me a lot of those answers, but I never said rehumanize. And I think that's the key here, because so many people think that these things like gratitude and thank you notes cannot be automated. So can you talk more about how we can do this also maybe talk about how the Rainforest Network did increase donor retention because they changed their communication process with donors. Right. So at the heart of all of this work, when we're talking about AI and automation, julia is making sure that people are doing people things, bots are doing bot things, and that the people are always in charge. So, as you were saying before, chat GPT gets a lot of things right, and then a chunk of it is wrong. Right. You would never send out an appeal without a person looking at it and reviewing it. I really just use it for research, to be honest. It can't impersonate me. At least I hope not. Not yet. Beth has an example. The Kentucky Fried Chicken using an automated bot to send out a Tweet in Germany celebrating Kristalnacht, right. Which was the beginning of the Holocaust. Celebrating it. Celebrating it. Come and enjoy Kristal knocht with a crispy chicken sandwich. Oh, my that bot was set on automate, and nobody checked. Nobody checked the right. So. Oh, my God. We certainly don't want to do that. We don't want to set it and forget it. We do want to find ways to bring in some personalization into communications, which we would do anyway, right. If we were thanking a high level donor. And we need to keep checking and sampling these communications before they go out the know. A human being needs to keep doing that. One of the concerns that Beth and I had early on at looking at AI was the chance that the C suite would see automating tasks as an opportunity to reduce headcount. And we can't afford to do that. What we do need to do is to get people off of that hamster wheel of just working as fast as they possibly can, trying to meet that monthly revenue goal. Take a deep breath. Build actual relationships with donors, tell better stories. Increase the retention rate. Right. If you could get the retention rate up from, say, 22% to 32, 42%, you could game changer, right? Absolute game changer. Much money to get a new donor in as opposed to retaining them. And yet our priorities are flipped over. So when you say, don't be a big box nonprofit so you did write a great article on TechSoup.org, and you gave the example of Barnes and Noble. I actually really like Barnes and Noble and how they made the pivot from being transactional to being relational with their customers. Can you talk about that example? I was so surprised to find that was a news story last week that Barnes and Noble had been on the cusp of bankruptcy as the pandemic began. And instead of continuing to offer everybody the same experience and selling a lot of chachkas, a lot of non book things, and you walked in and nobody paid any attention to you, which is a big store, big box. Store experience. They pivoted and have given local stores the opportunity to hand sell books to customers, which is what independent bookstores have always done to customize the displays based on what they think their community will like and to become local bookstores instead of part of a national book chain. And they're making money. Julia right. So when people tell us in development departments, I don't have time to pick up the phone and call people, I don't have time to thank people, which is the only way you and I can presume that thank yous. Don't go out. The fact is that you've decided that it's not a high priority. Right. That's a decision that you all made. Now, I do want to get some of the tasks that are sucking up all of your time and energy off of your plate, right. Maybe some of those meetings you don't need to have. Maybe it's helping to organize information better internally. I want to free up your time, but I don't want you to continue to do more of the same kinds of transactional activities that are all about volume and all about turning the turnstiles and not about getting to know people deeply. Turning the turnstiles. So, about the three steps. The first one is reduce the cost of online fundraising. The second is accept as wide an array of financial vehicles as possible. I love that. Like the diversification of income. And three, customize communications with donors at every level. How can we start to work on these one? Where should we go first? So let me start with the cost issue, Julia. Most of the field of software that facilitates online fundraising are commercial platforms. Those platforms will charge often fees to create your account on the site and then fees for transactions. Once you add up, then the third party fees, it really begins to add up the chunk of money that's coming out of a donation before it even reaches the nonprofit's door, much less the nonprofit mission. Their interest is in volume. They are not interested in you, your mission, your organization, a nonprofit platform. And it's not just every GiveLively is another nonprofit as well. Right. Our interest is in you, the organization. I don't care whether your budget is $100,000 or $10 million. You are the same organization to us. We want you to be successful. And the first step in doing that is reducing those fundraising costs. I think it's mission aligned to work for a nonprofit fundraising platform. And you know this, Julia. You've been in a lot, a lot of development offices. It is a place that struggles to be values aligned with the rest of the organization, definitely because of that transactional nature. Right. So work with a values aligned fundraising platform that immediately reduces the cost. The second issue really speaks to how to appeal to younger donors. My kids don't have a credit card, so if you're going to appeal to younger donors, you have to accept Apple Pay and Google Pay and Venmo. Right. That's how they're going to donate. If your organization only accepts credit cards and bank transfers, that is not going to appeal to younger donors. Right. So you need to make it as easy as possible for people to give and make it possible for them to give what they want to give in terms of currency. Right. So that's a huge issue for organizations to flip it over, Julia, and to look at the world through their donors eyes, not through their own needs, which is what happens. Right. Their needs become so great, the need to raise money right now, it's this cacophony that that's how you end up saying you can only give me this kind of capital. And by the way, I'm not even going to thank you for it. Yeah, let's talk about that. I know. And I think yeah, customizing donor communications is hugely important, not just in the ask, which is what we focus on, like you said, but in the Acknowledgment and the stewardship. How about stories? You can customize stories. Right. If you have clicked on with an organization, their videos before then I want to send you a video. Thank you. Right. And the next communication that has a video story in it as well. If you've clicked on blogs, I want to send you something written. Right. I mean, there are a whole bunch of ways of connecting communications to donors based on their own preferences already that can be automated. That's not at all hard to do. But again, we have to think of it through the lens of the donor, not through the lens of the nonprofit's needs. Exactly. It's just flipping it to how can we make this a better user experience for the donor? That's just something that's so hard to do. So where do you see donor surveys fitting into this? Do we want to survey our donors as to what they see and what they want, or is there data we can use to sort of do it automatically? I think we need to be in constant conversation with our donors at every level. I don't think it's a survey. I think it is a habit of asking everybody who interacts with your organization, how do we make you feel? To me, that's the number one question. Not how are we doing? Not how do I get you to give me more money. I want to know, Julia, how we have made you feel. Do you feel joyful? Do you feel heard? Do you feel seen? Do you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution here? That, to me, is the first question that very rarely gets asked. Right. And then the second question is how can we help you to become an ambassador for our cause to your friends? Right. Once we get to that step of creating a network of ambassadors, now we're cooking with gas. Now we got something going on, right, where you can lower your fundraising costs so much because you have this army of supporters helping you to raise money. Yeah, let's talk more about that. How do we cultivate this army of supporters? How do we know where to look for them? How do we know how to interact with them? What kind of tools should we give them? It's always surprising to me, Julia, how quickly people, organizational people, opt out of wanting to be in conversation with people. It seems so overwhelming to them. Right. And yet we know your ambassadors are sitting right there. They're trying to talk to you every day. You might not be listening, but they are the ones who are clicking like on things, who are sharing your things, who are posting their own content about you. They're right there. Start with ten. You don't need thousands. Start with ten. And on a platform like every, those ten people can set up their own campaigns for you, bring their own friends to it, share on, social for you, right? Start with a small experiment and be really deeply connected to these folks and keep asking them, how are we doing? How are we making you feel? How can we help you raise money for this cause? Because we know fundraising isn't for everybody. It's probably on the same level as public speaking for things that terrify people, but for a subsector of people, people like me and you, we love it. Nobody has to give to anything that I'm passionate about. But they're going to get asked, right? They can give if they want to, but I want to be great at asking them. And there are a lot of people out there who are waiting to be asked to be great at fundraising and nobody's asking them. I think it's so interesting that donors, I mean, they really are looking for this kind of frictionless experience, but they also want to know they're in the right place. So it reminds me of when I purchase something on Instagram, which I do very frequently, or I see an ad and I'll purchase something, it needs to be completely frictionless. But then I also need to get that receipt, that notification that thank you. And recently I really have been getting these great email receipts that have said, you're so awesome, you've joined this great community of fashionistas, or whatever it might be. I'm thinking of Warby Parker in particular. Like, I purchased some frames. They have such a fantastic email sequence that they send you and it's just very friendly and you feel like you've done the right thing. You feel like you're in the right place. And I think nonprofits really need to understand that people have that remorse immediately. Donation remorse, buyer's remorse. Anytime you put money down, you're immediately going to think, oh, can I afford this? Oh my gosh, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Am I in the right place? What should the very first communication be with someone when they make that donation? How can we inspire that community in them, assure them that they're in the right place, they did the right thing? Such a phenomenal question, Julia, I love that. And at the heart of what you were just talking about is this deeply rooted desire people have to be connected and to be part of community, right. That's why we give. It really is right. And we are so atomized from each other locally, nationally, of course. And our organizations need to give people that sense of connectedness with the cause and with this community, right? So it is, of course thank you for your gift, whatever amount. Thank you so much. It means so much to us. Here are things that you can do or learn or share. Right. We need to give people things to do that aren't about money as part of that first gift. Right. I want to feel like, oh, I've just joined a tribe of people, right. And how would it feel if after that first communications from the development or the staff, I got a second communication from a volunteer who said, thanks so much for joining me. This is why I came here. This is what this means to me. I hope it means the same to you. Or tell me what it means to you. Right. Overly professionalized organizations do not activate volunteers enough on this end. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a tribe of thank yours who are volunteers? I want you to email everybody who's donated to us. We're just going to give you ten or 20. Just send them an email saying thank you and what this means to you. Wow. Wouldn't that be amazing, right? You could cut and paste the email and just change the name, make it. Personal, put in whatever you want to put in. But the difference of getting an email from a human being who has been engaged in this organization to whom it means something special, that's a different level of connectedness right there. I think you're so right. And it's interesting to me because I use a lot of these automation tools. Like I use ConvertKit for my email. You can create a sequence. So if someone signs upfor any of my courses, no matter when, no matter 02:
00 A.m., on a Tuesday or six months later, they will get the same sequence and the same cadence and it's so easy to do. And then, of course, when I get the notification, I usually send people a personalized video. In the middle of this, I have a plugin for Gmail where I can record a video and it's 10 seconds and it just says, hi, Allison, I'm so excited to join the course. Let me know if you have any questions. Hit reply to this email. And people love it. It just makes people feel like they're in the right place, they did the right thing. And then I like to do that because I want to cultivate this community of people that know that I have their back, that they know that I will support them and that I'm a real person and I'm not a bot. So nonprofits, it really takes just like even an hour a week to do something like this, to set up that sequence and then to personalize it and tweak it and like you said, have these gratitude ambassadors that can go out there. The key piece here I loved what you said is, how about we ask people for a response? Now, nonprofits don't like that. They don't want people to respond to the email. They don't want comments on their social media posts. They don't want questions, they don't want DMs. That's a very faulty mindset. So how can we encourage people to be more relational? Like you said in our interactions know. Julia, I actually want to ask you, you're such an expert in this field, and you do such a beautiful job personalizing your communications. What do you think are the sticking points for nonprofits? Why can't they be more human in their fundraising? They don't want any kind of feedback. They don't want complaints. They don't want someone to say that they were offended. They don't want someone to I think that nonprofits tend to just want to put their heads down and do the work, and they don't really want to be seen, and they don't want to be visible and making things more personalized and customized. You become more visible, you become more seen. You kind of open that can of worms, and that's what I see all the time. Nonprofits want to turn off the comments, turn off the DMs, turn off the replies. They don't want to see it. They just want to push it out there like a billboard and not get any kind of response. But in our reality, in the world that we live in, to get attention and to get people to take an action, you do have to create some kind of emotional connection. You have to be a little bit provocative. You have to be interesting. So I think it's just the uncomfortable nature of the work that we do. We fear that we're going to get pushback. We fear we're going to get complaints. We fear we're going to get negative comments. That answer makes me so sad. I think it's smart. Me too. And it's why Beth and I talk so often about these are leadership challenges, not technical challenges. Yes, this is a leadership choice not to engage with people. It's a leadership choice to want to pretend that silence means success. Silence means we didn't ask an interesting question right and didn't open ourselves up to any input. The assumption that input will be negative and overwhelming and take away from the work, as opposed to input being the only way we can learn if we are deeply connecting with people well, except, of course, for the retention rates, which tell us we're not deeply connecting with people right away, which we choose not to look at. I know a lot of organizations that don't even measure it. I'm hoping, Julia, that we're looking at a new generation of organizational leaders who have grown up demanding and wanting a human connection and want their organizations to create cultures where that's the norm. That's what my hope is. An interesting trend now is that a lot of nonprofits are partnering with influencers and creators, and those influencers and creators are going to have zero tolerance. Like, if you are an organization and they do a fundraiser on your behalf, like, say, they talk about you on TikTok. Or YouTube or Twitch and they raise money for you and there's no acknowledgement, there's no communication. Of course people can opt out of that. But if there's nothing that shows your impact, these influencers, they're going to move on to the next thing. Because if their audience is not having a good experience with your nonprofit, if they don't have a good experience with you and feel like you're human centered and feel like you are building relationships, they're going to move on. So I think the way that we're fundraising is going to change because it's going to be based a lot more on influencer marketing and like you said, a lot more on that. Personalization. People want personalization customization. Can you imagine if I logged into Amazon today and it forgot everything that I ever did or Netflix or any app Spotify? No. We want to know that we're being seen and heard and maybe not on that level of detail, but just going back to you not even getting a thank you and you got one tax. Receipt, it's terrible, isn't it? Terrible. I want to walk into those organizations and just watch for a day or two what the heck is going on here that that would happen. And I do think a lot of it is fear based, that fundraising is super hard and we got to make payroll. And I get that. And you're only going to make payroll if you're making asks right. On that immediate term, but also the kind of fear based leadership that makes organizations closed and risk averse and not human centered. Right. And that is a huge problem for our sector. Yeah, it's incredibly it needs to come from the top down. Where you said earlier you have never been in a board meeting that's discussed owner retention. And I'm really racking my brain to think if I ever have been, it's always on, let's have another event. Let's send out another direct mail appeal. Are we doing a Giving Tuesday campaign? Where are we in our spring fundraising campaign? It's always more and more, but then it's never about what actually happens after these people are in the fold. And making a gift is hugely personal and emotional for a lot of people, no matter the amount. So not acknowledging that in any way. I want to say one other thing, and I want to see if you think it's true. I think that the problem with the thanking is that a lot of development directors think if they can't do it perfectly, they won't do it. So maybe there's data, crappy data coming in, or maybe they can't sync their CRM with their Excel spreadsheet or maybe their addresses are faulty. Who knows? I've heard this before where they're like, well, if we can't thank every donor equally, then we're not going to thank any of them. And I think, you know what, if you just send out five thank you notes, it's better than nothing. It's better than nothing, I think. But the goal should be to thank every donor equally, but you can't let that stop you from even starting. Okay? So that answer is total bullshit excuse for doing absolutely nothing, and it is certainly not human centered. And look, the promise, again, of AI is that you will be able to give a customized thank you to any donor at any level. But again, Julia, you have to want to do it. You have to want to do it, and you have to set it up. And yeah, that takes time. There you go. So@every.org our donors are on the low end of the scale. We want every donor to feel great and joyful and feel seen and heard through this site. And I think that's the future of fundraising. I think that the donors, like my grandmother, who wrote a check every month to the same causes, is not going to exist anymore. There are lots and lots of choices donors can make, and we see them making it every day because they don't continue to give to the same cause. Right. But as we've been saying for the last hour, it's not that hard if you make it a top priority. Right. It's not that hard. It's just got to be a priority. Exactly. This is fantastic. So where can people find out more about well, we know every, but where can people find more about you, learn more about you? And how can they sign up, get involved with Every. So come to every if you're a nonprofit, there's a page just for you and sign up for one of our demos so you can see what it's about. Even if you want to stick with your existing commercial platform, you could just use Every, Julia, for, say, crypto and stocks. The New York Public Library is doing that right now. But certainly think about broadening the amount, the different kinds of capital that you can accept and maybe come and have a nonprofit values aligned experience with us. You can find me on LinkedIn and anywhere around the web, and I'm happy to talk to anybody about this. My favorite topic, how to rehumanize fundraising. Julia I love it so much, allison, thank you. I really appreciate it and I really hope to see you in person soon somewhere. That would be lovely. Thank you. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on instagram at julia Campbell 77. Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.