Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

Stronger Than Stigma - Talking About Mental Health in the Workplace with Ian Adair

January 12, 2022 Julia Campbell Season 1 Episode 21
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Stronger Than Stigma - Talking About Mental Health in the Workplace with Ian Adair
Show Notes Transcript

Nonprofit leaders and staff alike face unique challenges that often place a strain on their mental health. With everything that we have our plates, how can we prioritize wellness? How can we create safe places at work to have these conversations, even when we may be struggling ourselves?

My guest this week is Ian Adair - TEDx and keynote speaker, 3 time nonprofit CEO, recognized leadership and nonprofit management expert, and author. Ian brings an honest and open first-hand perspective to the topic of mental health, having faced his own anxiety and depression, and having watched family members face addiction and suicide attempts. He wrote the book Stronger Than Stigma, A Call To Action - Stories of Grief, Loss, and Inspiration to share stories of ordinary people in extraordinary situations and help break down stigmas around mental health issues. 
 
Here are some of the topics we discussed:

  • How leadership has changed in the last two years due to demographic shifts and employee expectations (and what nonprofits need to consider)
  • Ways to support emerging and established leaders in this "new normal"
  • The inspiration for his book and the personal story behind his own struggle
  • How we can start to advocate for more mental health resources in the sector and in our own workplaces 

An Ian Adair quotable: "If leaders want to be supportive, start by normalizing conversations about mental health... The goal for leaders should always be to promote the acceptance and inclusion of those dealing with a mental health related issue and they can do this by just improving support systems. They can do this by spreading awareness when possible. They can do this by creating an environment of safety for discussions to take place."

Connect with Ian:
 https://www.strategy27.com/
https://twitter.com/ianmadair
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianadair2010/
His book - Stronger Than Stigma: A Call to Action: Stories of Grief, Loss, and Inspiration
Ian's TEDx Talk

Do me a favor? Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts (or your podcast player of choice) - it helps this podcast get seen by more people that would enjoy it!

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online. 

Clients include Mastercard, Facebook, GoFundMe Charity, Meals on Wheels America, the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and the Boys & Girls Club

Julia Campbell:

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice. definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. All right. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I am here with Ian Adair. Really excited to have you here in. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. Okay, so he is the CEO of the gracepoint Foundation in Tampa, Florida, a nonprofit that raises awareness and financial support for mental health and addiction services. Ian is also a three time nonprofit CEO. And by focusing on winning donor attention, which I know You talk a lot about on your website, and in your speeches. He has influenced corporate and nonprofit teams, volunteer boards, and frontline staff around the country. Ian is a speaker, an author and an advocate concerning mental health awareness and addressing mental health in the workplace. He wrote the book stronger than stigma, a call to action stories of grief, loss and inspiration. This is a book that shares stories of ordinary people in extraordinary situations in order to help people connect and break down stigmas behind mental health, wellness, and more. So very busy person here. But thanks for coming on the show.

Ian Adair:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you. Yeah, it's outside of a conference setting. So that's what's great, too.

Julia Campbell:

I know, I know, right? I'm so excited. I'm just so excited to get back to conferences in person conferences. But who knows where the worlds will be when this actually gets released or comes out? I mean, we could all be in lockdown again. Who knows? Let's hope it doesn't go that way. So let's begin. You know, let's begin with your story how you got involved in the social sector and nonprofit work? Wow. So like the origin story origin story number one.

Ian Adair:

Yeah, I think I think a lot of people I was introduced to, you know, the people involved in nonprofit world growing up. I mean, I grew up and I'm very open about how some of the struggles and challenges I had growing up had parent battling addiction, another parent battling mental illness. My father who is battling addiction left fairly early in my life. And so we required the help of others. And I was always in a kind of in a setting where I was seeing how mentors and programs are out there for kids that, you know, were living in poverty and needed help are available. So whether it was a Boys and Girls Club, whether there's a YMCA, whether it was an after school program, I always seem to benefit from from nonprofit programs and community programs. And so that was kind of my introduction into this world. And I just ended up finding some amazing mentors, some amazing coaches that helped guide me and help me get to college. And so when I was looking to figure out what to do after college, I wanted to get into the nonprofit world, it seemed like where I was most comfortable. So that was kind of my shot, getting into working with youth programs and in case management and kind of figuring out where my niche was, until I had this amazing executive director that I worked for, for Boys and Girls Clubs in Georgia. Tell me you have a great gift for telling stories. Would you mind sharing about our programs and the kids at an event and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed being onstage I enjoy making people laugh, telling them kind of the silliness and the funniness and the awkwardness of human relationships and how kids respond to our programming. And then the next year, he was like, Well, that was that was successful. Maybe this time, you have an ask or you make an ask or call to action or an app or an ask for funds. After the story, right? I felt comfortable again. So that was kind of my path forward into fundraising into storytelling, which I didn't see coming. I thought I'd be in program and direct service my whole life because that's just where I felt comfortable. And that's where I felt natural. But he really pushed me into being more comfortable on stage. Be more With the ask, and then you just get caught in it. And you get you meet incredible people, and you refine your skills and you get opportunities and you, you move around the country with amazing opportunities. And I've been incredibly fortunate and blessed to run three organizations, all of which that I have very personally tied to with their missions and connected to their mission. And that's where I'm at gracepoint Foundation today very personally connected to the mission of mental health very personally connected to the mission of addiction. And I've been here for the last four and a half years. And it's been great to kind of merge the two personal passion with mission and interaction and organization doing some great work. Great. Yeah.

Julia Campbell:

So tell me about the gracepoint Foundation and the mission and the work that you do there.

Ian Adair:

Yeah, the foundation has been around a while. And when I came on board, it was kind of one of those scenarios that I think you get a little bit worried about as an executive director, when you find out you're, I believe, the seventh executive director in 10 years. Yeah, given the the motivational speech of well, if it doesn't work out with you, we think we're going to just close the doors of the organization. And it

Julia Campbell:

was just one of those things where no pressure,

Ian Adair:

yeah, no pressure, it was the worst pep talk ever. And my boss and I have an amazing relationship. He can't even he remembers having that conversation, you almost feel bad about it now. But now that things have worked out really well. But I think I think if you if you take a step back and look at mental health today, mental hum is, is slowly progressed in terms of services and client care, what it's always been historically bad at just not good at all. Telling is telling that story, sharing its impact. Because if mental health is already something, as you know, that's very hard to talk about already. I think we freeze a little bit in how we share the story of the paths that we serve. And so that's where they were, it wasn't because they weren't doing great service, there wasn't because they didn't have great programs. It wasn't because they weren't staffed with qualified, amazing people. They just didn't know how to tell that story. And so,

Julia Campbell:

right, how do you tell that story?

Ian Adair:

It's tough, but I think it helps when you have someone that came in like me that it just started to really open up four to five years prior that about my own mental health and about my own struggles and about my family struggles, because I got to a place where I was like, you know, my mom had passed away about 16 years ago, she had battled mental illness for a long time, she had had a suicide attempt. And a lot of these things. Were very quiet because you kept them quiet. You didn't want to tell anybody because of the stigma associated with it. And then when I started experiencing battles of depression, and anxiety and panic attacks, and all these things, who was I going to tell? I was already taking care of somebody who was struggling. So I kept quiet. And then I started meeting people who started sharing their story. And I started meeting people who made it comfortable to talk about it. And I found the more I talked about it, the better. I got. And I'm like, you know what, I bet there's somebody like me that just needs to hear someone like me say it, right? And they'll start talking more about it. And then that's how they normalize that normalize the discussion, But it's the domino effect. 100% and dominoes keep falling, the more people talk about it. So now, fast forward to today where it seems like it's getting a lot better for people to open up about addiction open up about depression, anxiety, about their struggles. It's trending more on social media. We're seeing it more as a new cycle. But I still think it's getting that way for a lot of professional athletes. We've seen documentaries of Olympia Mumbai Isles, right? It's getting better for folks like that, but it's still it still hasn't turned the corner yet. It still hasn't got to that level of air cover, as I like to say yes, for regular people for you and me and people that that go about their busy professionals to go about their jobs every single day students, that whole everything in retired seniors that are dealing with things too. And I think the reason it still hasn't translated to everyday people, is because we're the group that still fears losing the three things that matter most in our life, and that's our friends, our families in our job. But I applaud all of those professional athletes, I applaud all those performing artists, all those people with any kind of social media following that are getting out there and talking about it because it's it's getting better, it's slowly getting better. And we need more people to talk about it. So I spend a majority of my time really bringing this issue to you know, C suite organizations, executive directors, nonprofit boards, and say look, we got them talking about it over here, but you also need to know you have a large employee base that needs you talking about it as well. Give them air cover to make them feel comfortable.

Julia Campbell:

Absolutely. So is this, what inspired you to write your book. So tell me about how that came to be

Ian Adair:

in a lot, in a lot of ways. I think the book was kind of something I've always had on my mind, it was birthed out of COVID. That's what I like to tell people. Because our biggest event of the year that we started three years ago, is called stronger than stigma. And we weren't able to have that event because of COVID. And, and one of the best things about that event, is that we bring people from the community that have a little bit of social clout, I'd like to say I have a little bit of following. They're successful. They're people normally associated with either where they work or their job title, or how much money they have, or their success. And no one really looks at them as somebody who's a caregiver, or somebody suffering from a mental health condition or somebody in active recovery. So when they go on stage and share their story, it's pretty impactful. And it hits people in a certain way. And so I was like, how can I, in the absence of this event, continue these stories. And so the momentum of sharing lived experience talking about recovery continues forward. And so we started with just putting so many stories together, and it just kind of snowballed from there. And I was really incredibly fortunate to meet people, for the first time willing to give their story to somebody else. Yes, and put it in a different format. Because all because the book is designed a specific way. And each story is broken up into three distinct parts, obviously not how they told it. But you know, they I let them be very comfortable with how I was going to do the storytelling. And they enjoyed the process. And I made them a part of the process the whole way. So it was just interesting. We didn't know if the book was going to work. We didn't know if it was going to be something we were able to get to get out in time, obviously COVID pushed a lot of things back and delayed a few things. But I think for us, you know, the two main goals for the book, really were first is to share stories from a variety of perspectives. Yes, and that including caregivers, suicide survivors, people who've experienced profound grief and loss, victims of abuse and neglect. And in those just managing their mental health every day. And I think people need to see the management of the every day from people that they admire and respect. And I think the second thing was I wanted to inspire people to act and get involved.

Julia Campbell:

Exactly. I think that it's inspiring when you can when people can share examples of how to tell stories around uncomfortable issues? That's a question I get very frequently. That's something a lot of my clients and students and you know, other nonprofits really struggle with? How do we authentically and ethically collect and share stories that provide agency and maintain integrity, but are also still really compelling? And we'll, you know, hopefully incentivize people to take action. So I love that thank you for bringing that book into the world and helping us have these discussions. But what are some other concrete ways that nonprofits can really help? You know, bring this culture of well being into their workplaces create a culture of openness at work around these kinds of hard discussions?

Ian Adair:

Yeah, I, you know, I think that's the one thing that a lot of people are struggling with, because we, I keep when I talk to, whether it's HR directors, or executive directors or CEOs, they're bombarded with, we need to do more, we need to do more. And they usually have their hand up, saying, Okay, what is that more we need to do? Please help and a lot of times organizations fear that that more is going to be costly, that more is going to be something that puts them in an uncomfortable spot or a liability spot. And I have to remind them that there's a lot of very low cost, no cost things that you can do to create that work environment of safety, psychological safety is more prevalent term today, but where people not only feel safe, if they are already going through something where if they need to disclose they can because they need to get treatment, they need to get help. Or if at some point, something happens to them. Like they work at their at their workplace and their environment. And they're like I'm in a I'm in a work environment where I feel safe, so I can deal with this right away. And I think that's what I talked about a lot. So kind of the Four or five strategies I always bring up is, first and foremost, leadership has to make sure it's safe for people to have this discussion or to address mental health related issues. And that's both safe, online and offline. Because I've worked in large environments, and you know, you can't, you can't have something in person events be one way. And then on Slack, or Yammer or any internal office communication tool, they look a different way it's got to, you got to feel safe, both online and offline, it really starts with the top to do that. So they have to create that environment with this is we're gonna we're going to talk about these issues, people need to feel safe about these issues, they need to know they're in a judgment free zone. I think it really does start with leadership, having to do that thing that sometimes they don't always get to do, which is League, and which is lead their people. Second is, you know, if you have people that are struggling, you've already, you've already set up, that it's safe to talk about and safe to address. You got to allow employees flexibility in their work schedule, to get the help that they need. One of the biggest jokes that I say in almost every conference I go to that usually gets somewhat of a laugh, and then somewhat of a staredown. From some executive directors.

Julia Campbell:

You know, it's a good joke,

Ian Adair:

our board president is like, I was like, you know, if the workforce today, if 70% of the workforce today is millennial or Gen Z. And they have a different set of priorities than what we had as Gen X or above which all we ever had was, let's face it, salary and title. Because if you look at my early history, and on my LinkedIn, it's like I'm in the witness protection program. If you told me I could be a manager, instead of a coordinator, I just you told me I could be a director instead of a manager, because that's how we were coached the progress in the workforce. Well, the group today is looking for a whole different group of things. And usually salary and title aren't even in the top four, or five. So I have to remind leaders that they need to understand that if and to get back to my original point, if a flexible work schedule is the number one thing usually people want in the workforce today, especially the majority, then you need to consider it. Because you're going to retain your best people, if you know that you're going to you're going to recruit top talent, if you know that. And but it also helps people take care of what they need to take care of when it comes to their mental health or their physical health, when you just have the ability to make appointments. And one of the biggest things we hear in the mental health space is now that I'm addressing concerns that I have, I don't know how to make an appointment, I don't know how to get across town, I don't

Julia Campbell:

know how to get get the help even where to start,

Ian Adair:

right. Or even if I have telehealth option, I work in an open concept office and there's no private place for me to go to even talk to my therapist or counselor through telehealth. So I I know people that actually have to go to the parking garage, to talk to their therapist, because that's the only private place that they can go that limits them from having to leave the grounds of the campus of which they work on. So allowing flexibility, I think is something anybody can do as an HR director or people manager so that people get the help that they need. You know, one of the biggest things that I I say is really, it's not the first thing you want to put in place. But it's definitely like the most impactful it's just sharing stories of lived experience sharing stories of recovery, sharing stories of being a caregiver. And it usually starts with leadership having do that, because you can't ask your workers, won't you share your stories? They're like, Well, I'm not gonna feel safe.

Julia Campbell:

Yeah, it has to start from the top down. I agree.

Ian Adair:

It just has. I mean, I think that the precedent, the precedent is always executives, managers, company leaders, because when when leaders are vulnerable and shared their experiences I know. And I know, that's, that's hard to do. For some people. When leaders are vulnerable and share either their personal experiences or the experiences of those people close to them. I think it creates transparency and acceptance in the workplace. And it really helps employees that are hearing this, for the first time really feel that they're in a place where if they disclose, they're not going to be fearful of what might happen because that the precedents already been set for this type of sharing this type of understanding. So I think you know, these are really absolutely zero cost sharing personal stories, and to letting your staff know that they should feel safe where they work. The last couple things I think are really easy. Just educate your people when you can about mental health and mental illness. One of the best resources out there that I believe is free to everybody is Mental Health First Aid training. It's a one day course I've taken it, you're certified for two years. It doesn't make you a mental health professional. I have to remind people that But it does help give you that knowledge base. So when you see somebody that you believe is struggling, you start to recognize the science and you're more confident to go up to them and say, what's going on? Is there something I can help you with? I've noticed this, this and this, we're here for you. And I think it helps those managers that feel uncomfortable talking about mental health as it is, just get more comfortable with. I was always uncomfortable, not because I didn't want to get to know my employees. I was uncomfortable, because I didn't know what the signs really were. So you just create those opportunities. And and I tell people all the time to that, like, how do we start this? And I'm like, Well, lucky for you. Mental Health has days and weeks and months all over the calendar. So you could just start right there.

Julia Campbell:

What do you mean, you mean cause and awareness days?

Ian Adair:

Yeah, cause an awareness days, I mean, Mental Health Awareness Month is in May, but I mean, it just snowballs. From there, you have minority Mental Health Awareness Month, bipoc. Awareness Month is July, Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. That is September world Mental Health Day, that's October 10. But there's a lots of days in between that allow you opportunities to share internally to your staff, about mental health, and then remind them of any resources you might have in your organization, whether it's an EAP program, an emergency assistance program, whether it's a wellness program that you've already put in place, because mental health and wellness go together, reminding people about self care, taking care of themselves. So we can all go together and feel very natural. You just have to start doing

Julia Campbell:

Hey, there. I'm interrupting this episode to share an absolutely free training that I created that getting nonprofits of all sizes, big results. Sure, you've been spending hours on social media, but what can you actually show for it? With all this posting, and instagramming? and tick talking? Does it really translate into action? In my free training, I'll show you exactly how to take people from passive fans to passionate supporters. And I'll give you specific steps to create social media content that actually converts head on over to nonprofits, that convert.com. Again, that's nonprofits that convert calm, and start building a thriving social media community, for your nonprofit right now, without a big team, lots of tech overwhelm, or getting stuck on the question, What do I do next? Let me show you how it's done. I can't wait to see what you create. So here's a question for you. Because I know you have a family, you have a speaking and consulting business, you're CEO of a nonprofit, how do you practice self care in your own life?

Ian Adair:

I mean, it's a struggle, because I have to practice what I preach. But I schedule that, I schedule it. And I think the biggest thing that's helped me is, I don't spend a lot of time doing things a lot of my friends spend a lot of time doing I don't spend a lot of time watching TV. I'm not really involved in personal sports leagues myself, most of my personal time goes directly to my family or directly to my own mental health care. So I just manage my time a little differently. And I'm just involved in in different things. I know talking about my own mental health, I know talking about mental health can be exhausting itself. You can only go on stage so many times and share stories of struggle or challenge and then not walk away or go back to your hotel room and just be exhausted from it. So you have to I have to really manage it. And I manage getting up and personalizing my own time I manage getting up and personalizing my own health, I become very scheduled and how I do,

Julia Campbell:

that's great. I really respect that I have to schedule the time also. And then I also have to, I really have to understand my own cues, which I think is very difficult for for a lot of people because especially, especially as a leader, you're taking care of others, you're constantly aware of what's going on, you're constantly looking for cues from other people, as a parent, as a partner, you're always trying to take care of other people. So for any nonprofit leader out there, that is very burned out, make sure you do schedule some time, take some time for yourself or even just take some time to reflect on what kind of self care you know you might need. So I think that's incredibly important. Well, you talk a lot about you know, advocacy, you're a huge advocate for overcoming the stigma associated with mental health discussions, but you also talk a lot about leadership, and leading with empathy leading with compassion, and leading to drive action. So, in your opinion, especially as we are emerging, hopefully from the darkest part of the pandemic, maybe we're going into this next normal, this new normal, this new environment, how can leaders really adapt? How can they like how is leadership changed?

Ian Adair:

Yeah, it's that and that's the thing. I mean, that's, that's, that's right there, the heart of it, leadership has changed a lot in the last five to 10 years. And I think, I think a lot of why it's changed, because who's in the workforce today? And what are they wanting? You know, when you're kind of growing up in leadership in the in the 80s, and 90s and early 2000s, it was very authoritative, or authoritarian leadership, there's really only two styles. And when you get to a leadership position, and it's funny when you get people to actually be honest about why I finally got here, and now I'm going to be that same way with my people. And I'm going to drive them and and it's like, well, the world's changed. And when you're working with, like I said, 70% of the workforce today that doesn't want the things that you want it you can't, you know, it's hard to incentivize them that way. Because they're asking for things that you just can't possibly comprehend. They're asking for access to new technology, a flexible work schedule, positive work, culture, professional development, coaching and mentoring. Even one of the top five things that's popping up is mental health and wellness. And none of those things do you hear salary or title. So it's really, really hard for somebody who has only been coached in molded a certain way to relate to that. And for them to have to realize now at achieving a leadership level that they need, further, professional development and training is a little bit of a shot. And for those for those executives, whether they're the executive director, operating officer, whatever, whatever it is HR director for them to have to hear that, it's tough. And then they start to wonder why they're losing good people, they start to wonder why they're, they can't recruit as well. So that you see companies that struggle with this the most are ones that are putting bonuses, if for, we have all these positions available, there's a bonus if you apply for it. And then there's another bonus if you stay six months. And so it's interesting to see who's really struggling with it. And I've seen this in my own in my in my own organization, I've heard about it from several my colleagues, these bonuses aren't working, because people have heard how bad the work culture is people have heard their willingness. They're not their willingness not to be flexible, and they don't want to work there. And that's what we're seeing. So I know organizations that pay less, that basically call everybody the same title. But because it's a positive work culture, because there's flexibility because they have unconventional hours, or compressed work weeks, or amazing benefits. People are drawn to that, because it's just better for them. And it's better for their families, it's better for their mental health.

Julia Campbell:

I mean, you couldn't pay me a million dollars to go back into a nine to five. Because of the culture when I wasn't a nine to five, you know, the last time I had a full time job really was 11 years ago. And I remember exactly what you're talking about, you know, you had to be first in and last out, you had to constantly be looking busy, you had to be in the office, you have to always have FaceTime with everyone. And this was being a Director of Development. There was so much that I could have done and probably been more productive. If I'd had a flexible work schedule. And this was before I had children. That was what I ended up doing. starting my consulting business was when I had my first child, because of the flexibility that obviously it offers. So I think that's incredibly interesting. So for the, for the executive directors, the board members, and even the people out there that want to advocate for this. What are some strategies that they can use? How can they start to create this in their organizations if they understand what you're talking about, but they're kind of running up against brick walls?

Unknown:

I think I think the thing that I say the most is if leaders want to be supportive, just by normalizing conversations about mental health, which really is the best way to reduce the stigma within the workplace. The goal for leaders should always be to promote the acceptance and inclusion of those dealing with a mental health related issue and they can do this by just improving support systems. They can do this by spreading awareness when possible. They can do this by creating an environment of safety for discussions to take place. People ask me all the time Well, if I take a certain classes, will that mean that we're good to go? And I'm like, it's not like you check

Julia Campbell:

off a box. It's I

Ian Adair:

mean, I remember even even when I was doing diversity inclusion work, I remember a manager telling me so if we take this class of unconscious bias, well, we've solved unconscious

Julia Campbell:

racism.

Ian Adair:

Yeah. It's like, well, if it's unconscious, and it's unconscious, that different people at different levels, I doubt one training is going to hit everybody with the same brush stroke, but I tell them, it's, it's the one thing they don't want to hear. Because it's difficult to hear and to cultivate a culture of empathy and psychological safety, wellness, it just requires a tremendous amount of consistency. Yes, and effort. And encourage, of course, and I think and but they have to understand employees want their managers to show empathy, to be concerned, these actions build trust with their teams, and we find nowadays when you really talk to people, why they leave, if they're really honest, they're not gonna say, Well, I'm getting paid more angry here, right? They're gonna make me a director and pay me 20 $500 more. And that's not why they're leaving, they're leaving. Because if you ask most people to tell you, they didn't get along with their manager.

Julia Campbell:

Right?

Ian Adair:

Right. Or they didn't work on the work culture. And they felt, yeah, they didn't feel supported because the workplace was toxic, they tried to talk about it, report it, and they weren't supportive. That is what a majority of people in the last two years are saying. And now with COVID, we're seeing a lot of people saying, I don't feel supported, because it's one size fits all. For what we're doing. It's we all got to work from home, one size fits all. Now we got to come come back by this hard date, and they're not ready to come back, or they don't feel safe. And it's like, where do you Where do you raise your hand? And that's what psychological safety is. I mean, that's what vulnerability is, can you raise your hand and say, I don't feel safe? Can you raise your hand and say, I have a question. And if you can't do that, you're probably working in the wrong organization or for the wrong.

Julia Campbell:

I think, on that note on that point, that's what we need to go into this next year or the next few months, and just continually be reevaluating. Are we being authentic? Are we being open? Are we being vulnerable? And are we asking that are we asking that of ourselves before we ask that of our employees? So thanks so much, Ian, this was fantastic. I'm sure people are gonna want to get in touch with you. I will link to your book in the show notes but how else can people find you?

Ian Adair:

I think the easiest way Twitter Instagram I have the same handle n m as in Michael Adair. 11 years ago Julia I'm still obviously bent out of shape about this. There is a famous magician in Canada named Ian Adair. Now on my social media thunder.

Julia Campbell:

Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

Ian Adair:

I did throw in the middle initial I have since built up my my following to where I like to say that he needs to give me back my name.

Julia Campbell:

Yes,

Ian Adair:

he does. But it's it's just it's it's it's it's funny. I just used my middle initial for everything. That's why I even put it in the in the book title just because it helps people find me a lot easier. Yes, that makes sense. So that's the easiest way to do it. I tell people all the time that they're okay. Don't text me or call me after eight o'clock, because I'm very much a family person. But if you DM me on Twitter, or Instagram, between 11 and one in the morning, chances are I'll probably get back to you. Yeah, because because I'm up and my family's asleep. And I've enjoyed having this international family that talks about mental health talks about nonprofit issues, talks about fundraising issues. So it's great to communicate and connect with people in the later hours but happy to talk to anybody who's looking for help or needs advice on how they can bring this issue up at their office with their board with their executive anytime a day.

Julia Campbell:

I love that. Thank you so much. Okay, so Ian m Adair. My social media handles are literally all different. Every single one is different. So I'm not here to being a social media consultant. Every single one of mine is is different. So yeah, I don't know. And then there's a famous singer called Julia Campbell. There's a bunch of Julia Campbell's and actress, but follow em by the book and check out all this stuff. You'll probably see him speaking at an AFP or nonprofit chapter near you. Alright, thanks again. And thank you so much. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning in to my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. You'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn