Do you hate your email platform? Does your CRM database give you hives? But - even worse- does the thought of selecting, choosing, and learning a brand new tool or technology make you want to just quit altogether?
Nonprofits of all sizes need a framework and strategies to make smart decisions about the systems that they're using and how they train people and their business processes. So many of us are often hesitant to start the process due to a paralyzing fear of doing it wrong. That's where the Accidental Techie comes in!
My good friend, mentor, and nonprofit tech guru Maureen Wallbeoff has solutions to your technology problems. Maureen is nonprofit digital strategist and technology coach with more than 20 years of experience in fundraising, marketing, and digital engagement. Her proven methodology maps your nonprofit’s strategic and operational goals to the right platforms and processes – helping you make good decisions about the systems you use to engage your supporters.
In addition to her 1:1 work with clients, Maureen is a sought-after speaker, and she has authored two guides on nonprofit engagement software. She also regularly blogs at her website and answers questions about nonprofit technology live every Friday afternoon on her Facebook Page.
Here are some of the topics we discussed:
A Maureen quotable: "It's really important for organizations of any mission, any size, any number of staff to actually do a little bit of reflection, before they start to move around. If you hate your dining room table, don't buy a new house."
Connect with Maureen:
Do me a favor? Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts (or your podcast player of choice) - it helps this podcast get seen by more people that would enjoy it!
About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:
Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.
She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online.
Julia's happy clients include Mastercard, GoFundMe, Facebook, Meals on Wheels America, the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and the Boys & Girls Clubs of America.
Hello, and welcome to nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice. definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact than you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello, Hi, everyone. Welcome back to nonprofit nation with your host Julia Campbell. Today I'm here with my really good friend colleague. I almost want to say coworker, life coach, business coach, therapist, sometimes marine walby off I'm so excited to have her here. She is a nonprofit digital strategist and technology coach with more than 20 years of experience in fundraising, marketing and digital engagement. And Maureen has developed a proven methodology that maps your nonprofits strategic and operational goals to the right platforms and processes. And you know, I love a good goal map, helping you make good decisions about the systems that you use to engage your supporters. So in addition to her work one on one with clients, she has authored two guides on nonprofit engagement software. She blogs at her website, and she goes live on Facebook every Friday afternoon to answer your questions about nonprofit technology. So welcome, Maureen. How would you fit us in your busy schedule?Maureen Wallbeoff:
Your priority for me, Julia, let's let's, let's be clear, I will jump at the chance to spend any amount of time with you because all we do is inspire each other and kind of help each other troubleshoot things. So I'm very excited about this podcast and looking forward to the conversation.Julia Campbell:
Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much. So I usually start the podcast off asking, you know, the big question, how did you get started? What's your story? What drew you to nonprofit work?Maureen Wallbeoff:
Well, I'll tell you, I had worked in retail, actually, for a long time through my college years. And then in 1991, I started working as a counselor for Planned Parenthood in Connecticut. And I rose up through the ranks over a 17 year tenure. So I remember when the fax machine showed up around about 1992 1993. And by the early 2000s, I was working in training, I was running the staff training department, we were switching from paper based appointment scheduling and medical charts to our first electronic scheduler and medical record system. It was not fun for anyone. We had people who didn't have personal computers. This was you know, when you could opt out of those kinds of things, no such thing as smartphones at that point. And I really was very empathetic with the struggle that our team was having trying to make a change from the old way of doing things to this box that was going to be sitting on the on the front desk. At that point I became the business director, I got a certification in a business back when a business was a term meant something. And then in 2008, I was approached and asked to help start a new agency for nonprofits called Firefly partners that still exist today. I helped to grow that company over a decade. And then in 2018, I left I left my role I left the business and I started this solo consultancy where I'm much closer to the nonprofit teams themselves and can really help them make really smart decisions about the systems that they're using and how they train people and their business processes. So it's been a rewarding ride and I can't wait to see what the future holds.Julia Campbell:
Yes. So your website is meet Maureen calm, and I love your little tagline giving practical wisdom To nonprofit accidental techies, and I know that in the work that you do, it involves shifting a lot of mindsets and addressing mindset blocks. So can you tell us a little bit about what are the biggest mindset blocks that you see that nonprofits have to overcome even before they jump into getting on a new platform or exploring new technology?Maureen Wallbeoff:
Yeah, I think people start right at the end of the sentence that you just said, we, we start by demos, they start looking, you know, something is identified, we hate our email platform, peer to peer tool, CRM, or database can't deal with it anymore. Whatever the tipping point is, the scramble then begins and a fairly reactive way, our contract is up and six months, we got to find something quickly and move in before they turn the lights out on our legacy tools. And I think it's really important for organizations of any mission, any size, any number of staff to actually do a little bit of reflection, before they start to move around. I have a quote that I use a lot is if you hate your dining room table, don't buy a new house, right?Julia Campbell:
Yes, well intoMaureen Wallbeoff:
your new house, and you're going to hate the table even more than you did when it was in the house that you have today. So it's about problem solving, right? is a move going to fix problems, or let you do things that you can't do today, in your systems. So it's a little bit of Know thyself, understand what you're using, what is your technology ecosystem, and how well or not, is it working together or not. And that means bringing your collaborative cross functional teams together to talk about things that an organization level rather than my tool doesn't work, I'm going to go find a new one. And I'm not really paying attention to whether it's going to play nicely or not with the stuff that we already have. So don't jump into the sales cycle, first, do a little reflection, figure out what your pain points are, and whether a new system moves is going to help you solve them.Julia Campbell:
I love that. I love that I do agree. that analogy, don't just buy a new house, if you hate your dining room table, because your dining room table will still be your dining room table, and you are bringing the same problems over with you.Maureen Wallbeoff:
And it's frustrating, because it's a pain to move. Right. And like it's time consuming. It takes brain power takes money. So I see. And I bet you do too. With your clients. People hop around twice, I'm in here, no, gotta move. Nope, gotta move. That's too much change for your team. Number one, you can't expect people to be able to adapt and adopt to a new system that frequently It's exhausting. And it also is, it's not strategic. It's just not. And so nonprofit leaders, folks who make these kinds of technology or business process decisions, they're really smart. They're very good at what they're there in the organization to do. But because they don't know, or we're never really taught how to think strategically about technology. They make bad buying decisions. And that's, you know, can be even a career killer. For some leaders. I've seen people not recover from you pick this thing. We spent money on it, we moved into it, it's not helping. And that's a problem at a monetary and leadership level inside works.Julia Campbell:
So a question I get very frequently, but like you said, it's probably starting at the end of the sentence is okay, what should I look for in a database? What should I look for in a CRM? You know, a lot of my clients are smaller mid size, they either are ready now to adopt a more robust system or they want to switch over. So what are some questions they should be thinking about? Before they kind of jump into the pool? bless you for askingMaureen Wallbeoff:
that. That's great. So you want to really start with your organizational goals over the next three to five years because this dirty little secret that's so dirty, really, is that most CRMs and databases at any price point, do most of the same things. Or we should say what is the CRM? Okay, yeah, that'sJulia Campbell:
great for people that don't know Sorry, no problem.Maureen Wallbeoff:
CRM is considered Did you it relationship management system. And you could call it a CRM, you could call it a database. Essentially what it means is, it's a place where I can store information about people, organizations, and what they do what they've done. And I can use it to send emails or pull direct marketing lists. Usually, there's some fundraising, gift recording stuff happening in there. And depending on the product that you're using, it can often do things like send email marketing messages, or fundraising appeals, power event registrations, sometimes even help you manage your social media advertising. So depending on your needs, there's a system out there that can do whatever magical flavor you're looking for. So that's, that's really what we're talking about. When we say CRM, or database, it's where info is where you pull it out, and you do analysis or manipulate it in some way. So what I always encourage folks to do is just hold a cross functional strategic technology planning meeting, and imagine things what's going on in your org in the next three to five years. And if you've got a strategic plan, even if you're like your four of the strategic plan, you can evaluate how well your current system is doing at helping you achieve those organizational goals. Right? We often think of them as separate things, your tools, your tech stack, your CRM should be like a staff person, or two, how is it helping you do the things you need to do to check those goal boxes, grow your supporters, increase your sustainers give a high touch experience to your supporters without needing to send an email to every single supporter that's personalized. So take that high level view. And I asked people really to imagine what's going on in three to five years, what are you working on? What aren't you doing anymore? How many staff do you have? And it's often the first time that people inside an organization from different teams have had 90 minutes, that's all you really need 90 minutes or two hours? If you're a bigger team to reflect on what? How will a new CRM help us? And then you can layer in questions like who are our top audiences? And what kinds of information do we need to capture about them? And how, what might we use that? How will this help our staff do higher level work or increase efficiency inside our team, if you've got folks who are entering data in three places, there's really no need for that, my friends, you can figure out a way to move the data without a human person, just people powering your way through updating your systems and using that information. I love that because I'm actually looking for a new CRM myselfJulia Campbell:
for my business. And I always start with the tools. You know, this is what someone else is using. I read a review of this. But I absolutely love the idea of just reflecting and visioning where not just where you are today. But where are you going to be in three to five years, where's your organization going to be? Because you don't want to be moving databases and serums. And moving all that data and clean, you know, you don't want to be doing that learning a new system and the learning curve every three years or four years. So what do you need? What are you going to jettison? Like maybe you need something to do more virtual events or manage more monthly sustainers. Maybe you're starting a monthly sustainer program or a virtual volunteer program. So I love that not just deciding how the technology can help you today, but really how it can help you grow. And the other thing I love that you said because I say this to my clients that the technology should be an employee. I always say your website should function like an employee, it should have a job description. And it should have performance evaluations every six months, maybe even every three months at this point to see. Okay, what's working, what's not working? Is it us? Is it the technology? Yep. Or is there just a mismatch in there?Maureen Wallbeoff:
Same thing and actually, if people do want to hop over to my website, meet Maureen calm. I've got a ton of free resources and one of them is actually like a grading worksheet. Nice. Got all the different types of tools. that an organization might be using gives you space to list the name of the product, who owns it inside your organization? Give it a grade, like, Is it an A? Or is it an F, and why? So it dovetails really nicely with your example about your website should be reviewed, every six months or something, stuff changes, and with turnover and things like that, it's always great to get your arms around things a couple times a year, even if you know, three weeks later, things have changed, you know, you're writing it in pencil, but it helps you understand where you are. And in terms of the technology, you're gonna identify some redundancies, you might have three things that send an email, why, you know, the advocacy team uses this and the fundraising team. Know,Julia Campbell:
all the time.Maureen Wallbeoff:
Yeah. And it's a very common thing for teams to pick their own stuff. It's a nice reflection of an organization that's got a culture of trust in it. But it can mess you up when it comes to technology. Exactly.Julia Campbell:
I recently read on your blog, if so many fantastic posts there. But one pose that really resonated with me was taking control of your nonprofit technology in three easy steps. And the picture is a woman who is very stressed out trying to have a Zen moment in front of the laptop. And I think that that is very reflective of where a lot of organizations are. So what are the the three easy steps to take control of your technology, if you feel like it's completely the Wild West and totally out of your hands? Yeah,Maureen Wallbeoff:
and everybody's like that. So if you're listening to this, and you have felt like, nobody really knows, we are the only people who have terribly dirty data. We don't trust it, or whatever your situation is. Everybody has it, I have it. June 5, I do large enterprise level brand name, nonprofits have it. So don't feel like it's just you that that helps like take the sting out of it a little bit. But there are there are just three simple things that you can do. But you have to really do on can't just like write them down and have intention. These are things that take a little bit of time and focus. So the first one is, I want you to form a workgroup, inside your organization, you need a number of people. And let's imagine Giulia that someone who's listening has a total team of five people inside their organization, you and I can think of some folks that are small and mighty, very lean teams, you all need to help each other with this technology. This isn't somebody else's job. This is everybody's job. And it lets you start to look at all of these things. In an organizational view, instead of just what I use, and whether I like it, it helps you lay things out. It also gives you a place to make decisions about prioritizing things that you might need to do around your technology or want to do around your technology. If you've got more than five people in your organization, folks have issues. They have wish lists, and I need a new donation form for x or I don't know how to get this report to run. Instead of dealing with that independently, it's much easier to have a parking lot of all this stuff. And then again, based on what your organization needs to have happen, you can prioritize those things. And it helps your team know that somebody is listening. And people are paying attention to your pains. employees will leave if their job is super frustrating. And right now, we are in a super, super tight job market. It's hard to get people to show up for interviews, much less have qualified candidates who you can hire. So keep them there. Eliminate that turnover by the working group. So that's step one. A second step is make some thoughts about your data. You are collecting all kinds of information. I know you are and I know you're not even looking at half of it. Again, that's a very common scenario for all organizations to experience. So think about what kinds of data will help you know that you're on track or off track with some of your goals and you might even want to break it down into an annual goal or a campaign related goal. Work with your vendor, whoever manages your whoever you're buying your system from. work with them to help you create either reports or dashboards, not going to cost you a million dollars to have somebody spend a couple of hours to set up your data so that your teams are looking at it regularly and making those database decisions that everybody says they want to make. But it's hard to know how to get there from where you are, which is I don't know how to get there. The third thing is investing in your team's training. Because we all use technology, it's very tempting to give somebody a login. And just like thoughts and prayers here, yes, our email tool, why don'tJulia Campbell:
you just use it as a you're in your 20s, you must just intuitively know how to use a logical tool. Yeah,Maureen Wallbeoff:
and sure, we'll all figure that out and kind of stab our way through it. But we might not be doing it in the right way. We certainly aren't figuring out how to do it most efficiently on our own. So I don't care if you have no plans to leave your tools this year, next year, whatever. Take a nose count inside your organization, figure out what people's pain points are about using tools, and then give them some training. Again, go back to your vendor, maybe they've got videos that people can watch, maybe you want to buy a couple hours of training for $200, it's not a million dollars, and your team is gonna be happier and more satisfied when they're logging in, they're going to feel like they're doing a good job at their job. So those are my big three.Julia Campbell:
I really want people to hear what you're saying, especially with step one, the workgroup, because if it is mandated from the top down, or if it's a board member says we have to do this, or the executive director says we have to do this and there's no real buy in there's no empowerment, there's no talking to the employees, then there you might be resistant to it resistant to the change. And they might be you know, just very hesitant to use it and skeptical that it's going to work. So I think having that group that can talk through the goals talk through the strategy is going to be really, really helpful for people. And of course, if you are an organization of one, and you don't even have to do that you can just you can talk you could think through like I'm the development director, what would the development director want? Now I'm gonna put on my marketing hat, what would the marketing person want? Now I'm going to put on my, you know, volunteer manager hat. So if you're wearing all the hats, definitely think through all of the different positions, and what the different departments might want. Because the goal I'm hoping is to grow your organization, so you will help our employees. Oh, wow. Okay, that was really, really helpful. Hey, there, I'm interrupting this episode to share an absolutely free training that I created that's getting nonprofits of all sizes, big results. Sure, you've been spending hours on social media, but what can you actually show for it? With all this posting and instagramming and tick talking? Does it really translate into action? In my free training, I'll show you exactly how to take people from passive fans to passionate supporters. And I'll give you specific steps to create social media content that actually converts head on over to nonprofits, that convert.com. Again, that's nonprofits that convert calm, and start building a thriving social media community, for your nonprofit right now, without a big team, lots of tech overwhelm or getting stuck on the question. What do I do next? Let me show you how it's done. I can't wait to see what you create. Just a pivot a little bit. I know we're all tired of the word pivot, but we're going to talk we're gonna get to talking about pivoting. Because you are you are an expert in teaching nonprofits to manage remote and hybrid workplaces. I know you're doing a lot of training here in Massachusetts, you're doing training across the country. So how can nonprofits like what's your advice to best manage this uncertain? You know, it's a hybrid world, we're entering one where things are partially in person and partially virtual.Maureen Wallbeoff:
Yeah. So it's, it's hard because we think that we need to just go to the same place and work in the same physical space. That's how we were all taught. That's how we learned how to work many of us. And I've been working remotely since 2008. So it's been a long time and, and at Firefly was lucky enough to be able to figure out how to do this because it was weird. We had AOL Instant Messenger. Like if that's what we used. Imagine that was a lotJulia Campbell:
of that's how my husband and I, like fell in love. We always credit AOL Instant Messenger because we would talk, we're both at work. And there were no cell phones. And we would just sneak on instant messenger and talk. So thank you AOL. building teams building relationships, building loveMaureen Wallbeoff:
building families. Yes. Right. AOL was instrumental for a long time when we thought about connecting with each other. So here's what I think about managing a hybrid or remote team. The first thing is that there are some jobs that more naturally are going to be able to be managed, worked remotely, some people are still going to have to come to a physical space. And that's okay. It is not an all or nothing thing. You may have somebody who, whose job requires them to come in every day. And they may not like that. But I would have a conversation with them and say, this job needs to be done here, because, and it doesn't matter that Julia gets to work from home because her job can be done remotely. You might have some turnover after those conversations. But if somebody is feeling resentful, and crabby about the fact that they their job means they have to come in. It's not great to have them around anyway, and better to have them know what the deal is. And that is one of my first rules. There's really only three things that you need. I love threes, did you notice Yes,Julia Campbell:
the rule of three, everybody was great.Maureen Wallbeoff:
Three things you need to be able to be successful in a hybrid or remote environment. The first one is a culture of trust. Oh, yes.Julia Campbell:
Culture of trust, no time clocks? Nah, none of that stuff, keeping your zoom camera on all day. I've heard thatMaureen Wallbeoff:
if you if you have a bias, and many people do, like, are they working? Or are they watching television, you're gonna know that based on their response time based on their production, you don't need to track them to know whether somebody is getting it done. So culture of trust is number number one. Number two is you've got to have clear expectations. Yes, expectations are really a person's opinion or group's opinion of behavior. So when you think about work expectations, we're really talking about how you're going to work and what you're going to do. And so be very explicit about your expectations with people, we're all going to work from nine to five, wherever you are, it's nine to five eastern time, you may want to be flexible about that. You also want clear expectations about communication channels, right? Like this is how we're going to use email. This is how we're going to use zoom. This is how we're going to use slack. give people the guidelines so that they can be successful at their job, instead of just guessing. If someone's writing you a book of an email, we've all seen those, like, I gotta print those things out, I can't digest all that stuff in in an email on my screen. So be explicit, and have these conversations and make those agreements so that you can all abide by those expectations. And the third thing is you got to have access to the right equipment, and resources. And here is where I have a stance, Julia and you know, most of them, like we all just figure this out and get along. But I have a stance on equipment, which is you got to provide it. Mm hmm. Bring Your Own Device is problematic in a number of ways. But the the main ones are, you can't control what people are doing and not doing on those machines. Right? Somebody may only have an iPad in their house. Yep. You know, like expecting nonprofit staff at nonprofit salaries, to be able to set themselves up with equipment is a failing proposition. And it is embarrassing for someone who doesn't have a camera and can't buy one. That's a fact. Yep. It's a fact I can't spend 50 bucks on a camera. So be ready. If you were providing people equipment in real life in an office, let them take it home, you are allowed to have rules about that. This is how we expect you to use it. And when you leave us, you got to return it in good working order. I just think it is a D II and accessibility issue. We've got to be inclusive and equitable in what we're expecting people to provide. And the other risk here with bring your own device is data storage. Yes. So somebody may keep a lot of stuff on their computer and it If you don't know that and they leave, they can be taken all your fundraising and contact information with them. So you got to make it a little harder for people to be able to be sloppy with their data. So I think it's possible to be very successful with those three things. And what has happened, as we've gone either hybrid or remote, is if those three things were a problem for you and your organization, the spotlight is on them. In a remote or hybrid environment, if you didn't have a culture of trust, when people were all working in the same space, right, didn't have clear expectations. If you didn't give people the right equipment to do a good job at their job, the value is just getting turned up right now. So they might not be new problems.Julia Campbell:
Oh, my gosh, that is so great. I think of how expensive Microsoft Office is. When I have to renew it every year or every two years, whatever it is, it's so expensive. I mean, a lot of the software is really expensive. And like you said, I do absolutely believe it's an equity issue. And we're dealing with this in schools as well. If we're making kids learn virtually, we need to provide them with a Chromebook like my kids all had Chromebooks here. I know other schools had iPads, laptops, things like that. But also, just so everyone is on the same page, and like using the same equipment, because a lot of times this, this does happen, people prefer Apple, people prefer PC. But there needs to be some consistency when you're in the office so that everyone can open that PDF, everyone can open that PowerPoint, everyone can send files to each other. You know, you can't have 10 Dropbox accounts and Google accounts, and you need to have really one system where all of the data is housed, or all of the important documents are so yes, I completely agree. If you do not have the culture of trust already in place it is it is not going to get better when you move to a virtual environment. SoUnknown:
let's face it, we all have work to do in those areas, you know, I think just we do holding it and then figuring out how you're going to stumble your way through it is way better than knowing it's there and pretending it's not.Julia Campbell:
Well, just the culture of work where you have to stay late, you've got to show your face early, you have to be the last one. And I mean, the first one and the last one out, you have to work weekends. So having clear expectations, I know that I really try hard to set clear expectations of trying not to work on weekends, we've talked about this. We've talked a lot about this, you know, it's not to work on weekends, try not to answer emails at 11pm. Because I think the lines get blurred. And I have worked virtually remotely since 2010. So the lines do get blurred sometimes between home and work. But as long as those expectations and guidelines are clear. And you know, Bernie Brown says clear is kind clears kind unclear is unkind. So just be as clear as possible with your employees with your coworkers as well. You know, if you have to drop your kid off at camp at 9am, you might not be able to make that 9am staff meeting zoom call, right. So just be I find just being honest, or trying to work a schedule around your you know, your life works really well, too. All right. Well, this has been this has been wonderful. This has been really great. I've learned so much. And I took a ton of notes. How can we find out more about you Marines?Maureen Wallbeoff:
Yes, you can find me and so so many planes. Flying I tend to get around. So you can you can find me on my website, which is meet Maureen calm, you can sign up for my monthly email. I'm not a spammer. I'm kind of send one a month with lots of links to resources, a little nonprofit technology story in there. And if you do sign up for my email list, you'll unlock all of those free resources that I was talking about Facebook Lives every Friday afternoon. Those are so great. They're super fun. I'm just very happy that my my business coach told me to start doing them three years ago, and I I did and I have kept going. So those are every Friday afternoon 1230 Eastern Time for about 20 to 30 minutes Facebook slash accidental techie. And you know, I also do an advice column for Blackbaud and their SP engage blog. So if you've got questions about technology, whether you're using Blackbaud products or not, you can submit questions and I'd be happy to answer them. And yeah, you know, just google me.Julia Campbell:
Right and hopefully we'll be able to be speaking at a con All together in person. Wow, virtually we do a lot of speaking. But you know, you'll definitely see Maureen at a conference, hopefully soon, depending, depending on what happens in the world. But we're hoping to get together in person soon.Maureen Wallbeoff:
Absolutely. And Julia I'm so I'll just say, you may leave this in, you may cut it out in the editing process. But I'm so glad that you're doing this podcast because you have so much knowledge. And you're very, you're also very practical. I know, that's not your tagline. But you were you were very practical in your advice that you give to people, whether it's clients or in workshops, or trainings. And so I think you have that empathy for fitting a lot of plates inside an organization, and how do I change my reality around communications and fundraising and marketing? So it's a pleasure to be here with you. And I hope our paths cross again soon.Julia Campbell:
Thanks. Yeah, I think we'll keep that in. No. No, that's nice. I don't actually think the word practical has been used by those around me. So I will have to, I will have to start putting that on my marketing materials. But they I really appreciate all seriousness, thank you so much. All right. Well, everyone, thanks so much. See you in the next episode. I folks. Hey, there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning in to my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn