Powerful Leadership Strategies for Changing Times with Kishshana Palmer

Nonprofits tend to be trapped in complacency and married to the status quo.  But what does it mean to lead in a time when the only constant is change? How can we exist in and manage teams when our realities continue to be upended? How can we galvanize movements if we ourselves aren't taking care of our mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health? 

In the latest episode of Nonprofit Nation, Julia sat down with fundraising and leadership expert Kishshana Palmer to give us an injection of truth, energy, and edification. 

Kishshana is an adjunct professor at Baruch College, a Certified Fundraising Executive (CFRE), a BoardSource Certified Governance Trainer (CGT) and an AFP Master Trainer. She is the founder of Kishshana & Co., author of Hey, I’m New Here , podcast host of Let’s Take This Offline, and founder of The Rooted Collaborative ™. She is passionate about ensuring that women — particularly women of color — are seen AND heard in philanthropy, a sector we built but do not lead. 

Here are some of the topics we discussed:

• How to lead in a time when the only constant is change
• Important characteristics of resilient leaders
• Ways to balance personal and professional wellness and wellbeing
• How to keep talented people in your organization 
• Why social justice is integral to the work we ALL do (no matter your mission)

A Kishshana quotable: "When change is the only constant, folks who are really leading are clear, are vulnerable, are learning, and they are most definitely listening - they know how to read the virtual room."

Connect with Kishshana:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kishshanapalmer/
https://www.facebook.com/kishshanapalmer
https://www.instagram.com/kishshanapalmer/
https://twitter.com/kishshanapalmer
https://therootedcollaborative.com/about/
Let's Take This Offline: The Podcast for Everyday Leaders

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About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online. 

Clients include Mastercard , Fac

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Transcript

Julia Campbell: 0:02

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of nonprofit nation. Thanks so much for tuning in. I am your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm here today with one of my friends and someone I stalk online. And we're going to talk about all the things it's kiss Shawna Palmer, international speaker, trainer, and coach with a 20 year background in fundraising, marketing and Talent Management Keshawn. I feel like you don't need an introduction. She's a supernova on any stage. Due to her charismatic and candid delivery. I have been fortunate enough to be at events where we were both speaking and share the stage. And it was just completely phenomenal. And we were just talking about when we first met and it was 2018 in Erie, Pennsylvania at nonprofit day. And then there were mosquitoes right at cars camp and several million other places that we have been to together. But every single time I hear Krishna speak it doesn't matter. If you speaking about philanthropy, leadership, living your most authentic life, diversity, the energy that she brings to the stage, the ideas the innovation is always entertaining and edifying. I love this part of the bio this is I did not write this, but I wish I could take credit for it. Because Shahana is an NYC girl and mother of one wonderful teenage daughter. She's the epitome of your classic 90s Queens home girl, and quintessential corner office executives. She's your daily dose of Claire Huxtable with a side of Blanche Devereaux. I mean, that is pretty incredible. And addition to her work as a speaker, consultant, event planner, she also was a podcast. Let's take this offline, the podcast for everyday leaders, and congratulations on season three of the podcast.

Kishshana Palmer: 2:52

Absolutely is coming up dropping. Barbara

Julia Campbell: 2:57

what's the address for the podcast?

Kishshana Palmer: 3:00

Let's take this offline.com. All right, perfect,

Julia Campbell: 3:03

because we know that podcast listeners are always looking for new podcasts. So let's begin with your sort of journey. How you got involved with nonprofit work?

Kishshana Palmer: 3:14

Yeah, listen, first of all, Juliette, how did I get into this is I think like many folks have a lady of a certain age of a certain age. Yes. Not going to look forward. I had a budding career in investment banking, I was making all the coins, breaking generational curses, and dying it. I do good heart. I thought all this money, all these nice suits and shoes, and no one is ever going to see it. I should go do something good in the world. I think my balance the reason money. I mean, it's that simple. And at the time I was married, and that was single lady, and my husband and ex husband and then husband, I thought he was gonna have like this big old career in banking. And so I imagined myself as a trailing spouse. And so being the practical woman that I am when I thought about what career could really help me to pick up and go no matter where I can do it in the world. I was like, raising money. I've been here ever since 20 plus years later,

Julia Campbell: 4:13

it's crazy. And you did really well at it. I know that a few times. I've heard you speak. You've talked about your experience with leading fundraising teams, working on all sorts of different campaigns. And now I mean, you're really considered a leading expert on leadership, resilient leadership, but also how to balance personal and professional wellness and well being. And what does it mean to lead in a time where the only constant is change?

Kishshana Palmer: 4:45

I mean, for me, it means to listen, and to see and one of the things that I have said to a few rooms that I've been in virtual rooms. In the last 16 months, your team has had a baby shower Our a zoom wedding, a baby reveal a memorial, and you didn't get an invite your people do not like you. I'm sorry, I want you to know you on the outside. And so when change is the only constant, folks who are really leading are clear, are vulnerable are learning. And they are most definitely listening. They know how to read the virtual room. And I think that you see that in many, many an organization who has had on the upside, you know, really, really great years around fundraising, have been able to pivot their missions, but also the folks who have failed terribly, have lost staff, and talent, and really realized that the systems that they had been leaning on heavily for years were a whole hot mess. This was their opportunity to seize the day by shifting with the shift. So if you're leading, you're listening.

Julia Campbell: 6:02

So what do you think are maybe some other important characteristics of resilient leaders things that we can bring into this next normal? Because as of this recording, and probably as of when people are listening, we're not out of it. Now. And I did love what you said on that recent webinar boomerang how, what is normal? And what do we, you know, was normal, even good in the first place.

Kishshana Palmer: 6:29

That's the thing, I think, depending on what what part of the internet you live on, your previous normal sucked. And actually, this is a whole lot better, you know, in between folks who had to weather commutes that hold them away from their families, to folks who didn't really like their families that much, or work or whatever. Lots of folks will live in double lives. And so I think, to be a resilient leader right now means to really understand what season of your life you're in, you know, I really deeply believe that before you can do a darn thing at your place of employment, you have got to have your house in order, or at least have that as a priority, and pride of place in your life. And so being able to be open to new ideas, or help Julie some people dusting off the ideas from Emma number 1245. To tell junior staff member gave you three years ago, hello,

Julia Campbell: 7:22

that you never listened to never listened to

Kishshana Palmer: 7:25

nothing. I'm wondering if I can get new ideas and new thoughts, you don't need new thoughts, you need to read the email that you left on read, it's down on page nine,

Julia Campbell: 7:35

exactly and talking to the younger people in your organization, or even just talking to anyone at your organization. I love I also love that piece of it where I know you talk a lot about listening to your team and asking them like not just kind of forcing this new workplace model onto them. So do you have any strategies for how we can adapt to this hybrid, virtual, you know, everything in between kind of workplace.

Kishshana Palmer: 8:02

I mean, the thing is that we have demonstrated that the work will get done, no matter where we put our butts in the seat. And so leaders and leaders who are choosing to be resilient, right, who are operating from a place of growth and resiliency, will realize that maybe your need to have FaceTime with folks in office was about controlling trust, and that you're content with those things. Because these younger professionals and these fed up seasoned people, they will quit this job. And there are lots of organizations who are hungry for talented folks across all aspects of the work that we do in the sector, who will treat your people better. So when we think about hybrid work, Julia and coming back into work, the things that I think of specifically, are being able to assess what work actually got done. They get done well. We have to change in order for that to happen, right? Change really bad bound, what resources that we realized that we didn't have that we somehow scrambled to have that are actually making the difference in what do we have to let go of? Oftentimes we have delegation by abdication. Michael Hyatt talks about that all the time.

Julia Campbell: 9:14

Oh, I love Michael Hyatt.

Kishshana Palmer: 9:16

And when you abdicate your role in delegation, you go, you know, Julia, she's confident she's got it. And then you don't look up. So what I found Julie, and I'm sure you're finding this as you're working through their marketing about how to position themselves they are in crisis is that leaders who had left the running of the organization completely to team members without focusing on vision, focusing on that Northstar, really establishing what success looks like so that folks are clear on where they can plug in, realize that they have put down large pieces that they now don't have the muscle to pick back up.

Julia Campbell: 9:57

That's amazing. I love that. I think that's awesome. fully true. Delegation doesn't mean just handing things off to people and saying go do it. And I'm sure we've all been in that job. And I've talked about my first job as a director of development. When I was hired, and I, my office was in a separate building completely from everybody. And they really said here is like a stack of papers, go through these papers, go through all the grant proposals. And by the way, your job is to raise $10 million, by the end of the year. Goodbye, we want to see you again, report to the board meeting next month.

Kishshana Palmer: 10:37

And I know that the Julia now would tell the Julia of your first child Curwood, get out, get out. And are in roles, right, regardless of whether we sit in a named leadership position, or that we are leading by inference or influence? Well, we know that the best thing we could do for our organization, and and just more pointedly for ourselves, is to get out. I think the thing that became really clear for me over the last 18 months is that coming into the first wave of the pandemic, thing, how organizations in the integrals, individuals who run them are able to navigate all of the different challenges in real time. And then now that we're going into another big wave, where folks have different decisions that they need to make with remnants of the old decisions, is that the reality is everybody doesn't need to stay. Some people talking to other people about merging, closing, maybe becoming a program of another. And that's not that's not popular, that's not popular. But if we're going to actually do transformative work in the sector, and if we really believe that we are people powered. And if we really believe that we have game changing, life affirming system, moving stories to tell, you might just be a chapter in a book, and not the book. So I'll give you a real pointed example. I knew that I needed to get out of being a fundraising consultant in its truest form, I don't write plans, I'm not coming in I can, I will coach your team on how to do how to fundraise better if this executive team, I knew I had to get out of that body of work, because I wasn't best positioned. Doesn't mean I wasn't the smartest, or I wasn't good at it, to do that work, that there was different work, that I was actually more aligned and better and better position to be able to have impact. And if we're actually getting into the work in our organizations that are mission driven, and activated based on impact, and you have got to be able, as an organizational leader to say, Are we actually best positioned to deliver on this promise? Are we actually the one who can action, this mission to results?

Julia Campbell: 12:58

And that takes a lot of courage? How did you realize that? What made you realize it? And how can we like what are some questions we can think through? If we're feeling like we're in a similar position at our organizations?

Kishshana Palmer: 13:12

I think for me, I realized it in two ways. One in my spirit and two in my in my in my purse. Okay. So in my spirit. I wasn't excited about the work. There was drudgery around it. I was late on projects. I was over committed to things. I wasn't handling my business with excellence. So did organizations raise money based off the plans I wrote yesterday? Did campaigns go off? They did they happened? Mm hmm. Were more leaders in position to raise funds. Absolutely. Absolutely. Was it stressful? Yep. Would folks say like, you know, that was my best experience, even though we got the result we want it. And people like me, but they'd be some of that. And then on the so that was that was in my spirit. Like I just knew I wasn't doing the right work. I was tired. I was frustrated. Yeah. It always felt like dragging 100 pound bear up a hill.

Julia Campbell: 14:06

Oh, yeah. I feel like I've been there. So when

Kishshana Palmer: 14:09

you're doing that get out. Right. And so then the second thing was my purse. I wasn't winning RFPs which I don't do any modelsim RFPs. I wasn't winning contracts. I would the race to get to be the lowest bid with the most work. But the biggest problem like I was like, none of that was working for me and

Julia Campbell: 14:27

so on my gosh, I know. Yep. And to get out.

Kishshana Palmer: 14:30

So Julie, you know that when you're doing when you are going up the hill and we are doers, action takers get it donors, right? Yes, you're when that's your mode of operating in your healthy place. You're not gonna let that go. When you're not in a healthy place when you're in the feed my family way. So when you swing that into being an organizational leader, when you swing that into being the one who was charged with raising transformational funds for your organization, that is weight on your back back that you cannot shake. And so being able to be resilient in this time means feeling that fear and doing it anyway. Absolutely, those hard decisions, even if it puts you out of a job temporarily, because I guarantee you, it's gonna make space for your next thing, guaranteed.

Julia Campbell: 15:20

Hey, there, I'm interrupting this episode to share an absolutely free training that I created that's getting nonprofits of all sizes, big results. Sure, you've been spending hours on social media, but what can you actually show for it? With all this posting, and Instagramming and tick tocking doesn't really translate into action. In my free training, I'll show you exactly how to take people from passive fans to passionate supporters. And I'll give you specific steps to create social media content that actually converts head on over to nonprofits, Zap convert.com. Again, that's nonprofits that convert calm and start building a thriving social media community, for your nonprofit right now, without a big team, lots of tech overwhelm or getting stuck on the question, what do I do next? Let me show you how it's done. I can't wait to see what you create. I fell into this job completely accidentally. Some people might know my story, I was laid off from my nonprofit development job, not the one that I was putting in office. But another one when I was eight months pregnant with my daughter, who's now 12. But I should have seen the writing on the wall. But I was so scared that I wouldn't have benefits. And you know, you're just terrified of what the future holds and things that aren't predictable. And the status quo, while it sucks is pretty reliable. So I think we do get trapped in complacency and a place of fear of the unknown. And I really hate to say, silver lining with the words COVID. Just because I know there was so much loss, and you personally had a lot of loss. But I think one thing that came out of it that could be viewed as an opportunity is things like the snowball have got shaken up. It absolutely did. Yeah. So what are some? What are some things that you saw that you hope nonprofits kind of what do we what do we take with us? And what do we leave behind as we rebuild our society? Basically,

Kishshana Palmer: 17:40

I think the thing that we can leave behind are that we became way, not all, many of our organizations became way too complacent with the status quo. Systems that stuck with tactics disguised as strategies, with not having a plan, with not making the investment in your organization's longevity and health behind experts who actually know what they're doing with taking whatever you could take with working your people damn near to death, and not being able to compensate them. So as opposed to streamlining your programs and your operations for the talent you have. You want to keep growing stuff. And when people to the bone, we can't keep doing that physical quit, and get this good unemployment, and be at the house. And so leaving all of that nonsense behind. And this idea that we can be mission driven, but not be in the midst of social justice. I don't care if you miss bees and trees and leaves about doggies shout out to my dogs, you know who I love so much, dogs and cats and pigeons, or cares about these babies, whether they're healthy, or they have cancer, or if it's about K through 12 or higher ed, care what your mission is about. But I have to tell you, the whole point of your mission is to correct an injustice that is happening in the mission that you are so deep to serve. That in of itself is social justice. Hello, welcome. Welcome to the struggle. And so idea that we could do this work, whether you're a faith based institution, or a secular institution, and not be in the justice work is false and foolish. And so that has to get left behind what we can pick up is the reality that the work that we have chosen to do is both hard but it is also rewarding. And it is a part of the social safety net, globally, of how to right side, so many different social ills and challenges from environmental back that we have chosen to navigate. And just call it what it is exactly. In this work, Julia. You thought it was gonna be easy to get out?

Julia Campbell: 19:44

I know. You thought you could just call up some wealthy donors or send some emails and yeah, never have to talk about tough issues.

Kishshana Palmer: 19:52

Oh my See you later. We don't want it.

Julia Campbell: 19:55

That for me, is still a constant struggle and I I feel completely I feel exactly the way that you do about that. I think that to say that nonprofit work is not inherently, like you said about social justice are inherently political is a fallacy. So when people hear political, they're going to freak out. And they think I mean, partisan. But they're very different things. So no matter what work you do with, like, you just said, you could be saving pigeons. There's someone out there thinks that money could be better spent, like, what about the rats? I'm sorry about the dogs.

Kishshana Palmer: 20:33

What about ism is gonna push us right over the hill that I

Julia Campbell: 20:35

work with an organization, a client, now they're trying to stop the dog meat trade in China? Constantly, every single day? What about cats? What about this? What about the bat? And it's like, well, there's probably an organization working on that. It's not that we don't hate cats. It's just that is not our particular mission. Right. So I agree. What about ism? Yep.

Kishshana Palmer: 20:57

And then what about ism, we are not immune. And I think that there's this false idea or had been this false idea that folks who work in our sector are somehow protected from what was happening out there. And that our work was by and large, altruistic? No, there are lots of folks in the sector that make good money that's not playing. And whose organizations when you pull back, pull back the curtain Jolene doing a darn thing, ooh, organizations that are doing fantastic work, working themselves to the bone or not getting either the resource or the recognition that goes along with that. So even within our sector, being a being courageous enough to right side, some of that, and to adjust that work. That is a second layer of work that we got to bring forward.

Julia Campbell: 21:36

Oh, I love it. Well, that's a perfect segue, actually, into what I wanted to discuss next. Well, first, actually, I want to ask what any grammar you

Kishshana Palmer: 21:45

Oh, you know, I haven't finished any I'm so lazy. I don't I'm not.

Julia Campbell: 21:48

It's a lot of work. No, it's

Kishshana Palmer: 21:50

just I promised you that I started one day. And I was like, how long is this test? I love test, but I forgot. So I will commit that I will take my Enneagram and I will let you know, do you wagers on what you think I might be?

Julia Campbell: 22:02

I'm an eight. I don't know. Because it's so much about what goes on under the surface. Right? On the surface. You're I think you're definitely an eight, like outgoing, like, looks like nothing bothers you. But I mean, there's so many underlying like, themes and currents that I think it's really interesting. I'm actually not an expert on it at all. But what inspired me to take it actually was Mark Pitman's book, The surprising gift of doubt, he talks about strengths, strengths finders, which I know you like, because you mentioned that in a webinar, and I was going to ask you about that too. Like, what are some tools that we can use? Like strengths finders or the Enneagram? to really learn more about our team? Um, but do you want to transition back into social justice?

Kishshana Palmer: 22:47

No, I really, I'm biased when I'm showing my coach. So okay, that's so cool. And I fell into strengths finder in my 20s. So I always tell folks, like, you know, they're not paying me for any of this. But literally, it was the thing that changed my life. As a manager, I was a young manager with a big team. It was the only non fundraising session at a fundraising conference that I went to. And the name of the session was I forgot, I was forgetting his pronunciation, but I remember the name, it was finding your frequent in hell.

Julia Campbell: 23:14

That's an awesome name for a session. It was

Kishshana Palmer: 23:17

so good. I was like, gonna name my sessions better. That was great.

Julia Campbell: 23:20

Because it's going to eliminate people. It's going to, like repel a certain group of people and attract a certain group of people.

Kishshana Palmer: 23:26

Exactly. And it was such a great like, just releasing thing about what would you do if you spent your time focusing on the things you were amazing at? aligning yourself with others who were amazing, the things you were not amazing? Yeah. How would like look, and I was like this to be my life's work. I mean, it was amazing. And my management game, really, like went through the roof. After that I was on a webinar the other day, and I was keynoting at a conference and they were several 100 people on the line, and their folks who work for me six times ago. Remember me, I remember you. And so your that work carries itself forward. But I always tell folks, it doesn't matter what behavioral tests and you know, personality things you take that you like, follow all the activities, do all that work, reminders, do the post it because it's really great to keep reminding yourself about how you show up in the world. But that's one of the things that I love. Like, if we're gonna use it, we're gonna use all of it. Yep.

Julia Campbell: 24:24

So Oh, we love it. Yeah, man. I'm cool. Well, I'll have to talk to you offline about that, because I'm really interested. I love taking quizzes. Maybe that's part of my strength. I don't know. I love notebooks and planners and to do lists and my husband would definitely say that you would definitely agree with that concern. There's like post, it's all over this. I do want to bring it back to the conversation around systems and sort of maybe the complicity of the philanthropic sector in perpetuating certain systems. So you founded the rooted collaborative which is a global community focused on the holistic evolution and advancement of female leaders of color in the social impact sector. And I know in July, you held the rooted retreats, which from what I saw on your Insta Stories looked fabulous. So what inspired you to create the collaborative? And how did that come to fruition?

Kishshana Palmer: 25:21

Early So in 2018, I was on my way to FP Toronto's conference, the black Canadian fundraising collective, which at that time was a loose group that had formed, invited me to dinner. And I was on the plane there. And for those of y'all who are, who are believers will understand this, you know, God was like, I need you to do a retreat for black women fundraisers. And I was like, No.

Julia Campbell: 25:47

I can imagine having that idea in my head or something like that and saying, no,

Kishshana Palmer: 25:51

no, my. And so I went on to have a great conference. Dinner was amazing. The seed was forming already. And I still I even floated the idea. Remember that dinner and folks will eat away from the US from it from UK and from Canada. We're all in one spot. And they were like, we're doing it and I was like we are no, I'm not able to cute idea though. And so over the course of the next year, I kept having more conversations with women I trust with more advisors doing more listening at different conferences, etc. And more women would come up to me and say, Well, don't count me out. And they'd be South Asian, and Southeast Asian, Latina and indigenous women and I would kill I was just talking about the one thing I was gonna do for black woman like that, was it I was like, I'm blind. I will do it for the black woman did. And they were like, oh, no, no, do not leave me out. Thank you figure it out later.

Julia Campbell: 26:45

Like, literally just figure it out, make it happen. And

Kishshana Palmer: 26:47

right. And I said, What am I gonna do with all these women until we have this retreat in person he endemic, and so we formed this community. And so then the pandemic happened, I wasn't gonna do anything. My email was flooded with, oh, no, we will we're gonna figure this out and figure it out. We did our first online retreat in 20. That was banana boats. And then we decided to do it again this year, when we realized that we weren't sure if the world was gonna open back up. It did right after that. But what was so great, and what's okay, so our retreat is sort of like our marquee event, but we really have morphed and continued to iterate rather not morph into a community of practice, because the experience that women have, and as folks who've gone to our through our ally track, as well as folks who are in the larger conference, is really transformative. And we tried to figure out like, Okay, well, how do we keep that going year round. And so we created the RC Lounge, which is our membership. And we have great events and wellness focus, while being focused life coaches, you name it, and what started to really stand out in our surveys. And the work we're doing is that if women are not well, then nothing else moves. And black women for as long as we can see, you have been pacesetters across every aspect of culture. So if we well, then no one is going to be well. So our work is continuing to evolve. And we've realized that personal development, his professional development, and well being is so critical, mental, physical, spiritual, emotional health, critical to being well, so that you can do the work that you are called and designed to do. And we can't galvanize, and we can't create and move movements, and we can't do any of that work if we're not well. And one of the questions folks ask me all the time, Julie is like why don't I do it for all women? I would like to, is anybody planning to come volunteer and staff this thing? Because there's a lot of work.

Julia Campbell: 28:43

People have great ideas. And then when it comes to implementation, yeah, they lost your phone number.

Kishshana Palmer: 28:49

Exactly. I'm like about the funding cut to check if I can hire staff. Thanks. And so you know, there will be a point where we will figure out a way because we want to make sure that black and brown women continue to be centered in our work. And yet, we understand that there have been lots of fits and starts around doing things with women in our sector. And they're great folks who are doing work in different pockets around women. So there's a lot of work to be done. So from a trajectory perspective, the work we got to get our stuff together, we have to make sure that women who identify as black Indigenous Women of Color globally, feel like they have a community hub that they can come to for that community of practice support. And we have a kickoff event that we do every summer so ours is going to be next stuff to end of September, and we're going to somebody island, so September 29. Second of 23 I know

Julia Campbell: 29:41

it's gonna be Wait 2022 Nice. We'll be back in person,

Kishshana Palmer: 29:46

but I'll be once wonderful it's gonna be great. And I in and I've tried to figure out like how do we include the folks who I love who don't want black or brown women and how do we figure out

Julia Campbell: 29:56

the ally track? I do, always to be included?

Kishshana Palmer: 30:00

Totally, but if, again back to the amount of work that it takes to do it, right, I am about efforts to outcomes. So if we're going to do work, and it's going to stop there, I don't want to create things that feel like oh, well, I went to this one training this one time, and I checked the box now I'm good, no, how do we bring that work forward. And I may not be the best person to actually be the steward of that work. There are really great practitioners who are doing this work. And you can Island Chris Conway who are running Wellspring, like, didn't just do an empathy agency doing great work, I just bring in to facilitate because I have the because I have an audience like, and that could be good enough. But the collaborative exists, because there are so many women who are in organizations literally drowning in a teaspoon of sorrow at all times, and being overworked and underpaid, and we haven't won anything and pandemic, people just have enough. Not enough already.

Julia Campbell: 30:53

I do want to say something just from my perspective, as a white woman, you know, white sees woman, I don't necessarily think every table is meant for me. I, I would love to participate in more conversations around sexism and systemic discrimination against women in the sector, or females or people that identify as women. But I don't necessarily think every single table has to be for me. So I really respect what you did with the route of collaborative I think that was I think, just from what I had heard from fundraisers that I know that it was incredibly needed. And I appreciate

Kishshana Palmer: 31:31

that. And, you know, Julie, I, here's what I'll say about that, right? Like, sure every table is not for you. Also, none of this stuff is going to be transformative. If my wife girlfriends who respect me and love me, and will do damage any day for me to make, make things rock. Don't get in front like I'm taking the book. That's it. Because I was reading an article this morning about The Handmaid's Tale, and the genre of writing, which I always mispronounce that word, just until to

Julia Campbell: 32:01

forget, oh, dystopian. And that's like my favorite genre.

Kishshana Palmer: 32:05

But what's so interesting about it is that it actually takes most of the genre takes social ills that actually have occurred to marginalized communities, flips it recenter the character as white to elevate the wrongs that happened in the work. So that is, at its root, what the genre is supposed to do, where it misses, is to be able to give the context because like art, if there's not an explanation on the plaque, or next to the wall in the gallery, it is left to interpretation. And so in The Handmaid's Tale, it doesn't have to address race, because white women are now centered. But the issue that the entire series rests upon are the buying and selling, like when we were saving slavery. Anyway, I give you that, because that's pop culture example real time to say, I'm not trying to recenter you in my work, per se, but I damn well know that if I want this work that we're having to have real long legs, I realize we have realized long legs over time, then you don't have to be like, Look, I'm mad as hell. And we got to do something about this, and he's over here are not going to be treated crazy. And I'm going to like if that's not happening over time, and eventually it's going to be an echo chamber. And that's what I don't want. And so figuring out how to from a business perspective, and then from a systems perspective, address that is really the work I have to do. And it's the work that people won't see. Because it's boring. It's not cute, and it's not really cute on social media. But it's the worst.

Julia Campbell: 33:37

Oh, it gets ugly. It gets ugly on social media.

Kishshana Palmer: 33:41

Oh, yeah. Oh, are we famous?

Julia Campbell: 33:47

And you know, I'm sure she will not mind me mentioning her. I just I talked a little Claire the other day talking about people that get pretty heavily criticized on social media. So yeah, the conversations can really get ugly. I think for my for my last question, I would love to know, what are some or maybe just the first step that nonprofits can take to expand opportunities for professional women of color in the sector.

Kishshana Palmer: 34:19

Fight with the women in your ranks, pay us as consultants for our time, pay us and our knowledge because what ends up happening if you look very closely in organizational ranks, that oftentimes folks of color particularly women of color are subject matter experts, but they are not compensated within organization or as consultants for that knowledge and then therefore are not seen as leaders because evidently somehow leadership qualities and subject matter expertise, get disaggregated and so that's one thing pay us okay, just real simple. Second of all, make professional development or requirement Making resources available so that folks are getting educated across the organization in the places where they can stand up and knit together Legos that really will have teams working cohesively towards the same thing. It is not enough to have a diversity hire. I hate the DEM expression. It's not a stone expression. Yes. Divers odd diversity hire diversity board member. I'm like, you know, race is not the only diversity. Okay, nevermind.

Julia Campbell: 35:28

Yeah.

Kishshana Palmer: 35:31

So really making sure that it's not just a checkbox, I guess. It's actually a part of your practice and your policies. Yes. And starting there. Now, with your statement? How does it work in payroll? How does it work in compensation? How does it work when in performance evaluations, and so organizational leaders who are in position to be able to make those types of see changes, being able to step forward and be like, even if I don't really understand it, because you know, I'm a grown person with a whole lot of live life. And I mean, I get it, I'm willing to do something different. It's something that organizational leaders can do. Organizations are like organisms. And so if we're going to continue to morph and grow and shift, you have to recognize that the most diverse teams are the ones with the biggest innovations are the ones with the biggest wins. So you want to raise more money, you need to have more diverse team members on your crew, period. Oh, you want to have better communication strategy, you have that to be talking to the way the world is growing, because it is a world majority of folks who look like me. And so I think organizations can pick any one of those as a starting point, and then align yourself with critical thinkers. And if you don't have the talent in house with external folks, who will make sure that you don't, you aren't pennywise and pound foolish, okay. And so that's, that's, that's sort of like pick from my list of

Julia Campbell: 36:54

chess. Thank you. That's a perfect place to end I believe, where can we find you? Okay, so, I will say before you answer that, if you want to hear the trials and tribulations of dating, definitely follow. Get Shahana on Instagram, it is amazing. And every Friday, and it's we were saying it should be a book. It should be a podcast, it should be a movie. We're not sure where it's gonna go. So I will just give you a shout out for your Instagram. Is it still fun to diva?

Kishshana Palmer: 37:27

Not oh my gosh, so used it right. Okay. Bomber. So across all social media. Oh, perfect. Okay. Asana primer.

Julia Campbell: 37:35

All right, we will link up to that in the show notes. What we're gonna say,

Kishshana Palmer: 37:38

I've been fun diva. Like in search, it'll come up. It's a little cool.

Julia Campbell: 37:42

And if people want to sign up for the waitlist for the retreat, or the collaborative,

Kishshana Palmer: 37:47

oh, they just need to go to their rooted retreat calm and sign up. If they want to know more about the root of collaborative to go to the root of collaborative.com. Find us on all socials at the root and collab. So anywhere that you want to be. We are hanging out there a little bit.

Julia Campbell: 38:04

Nice. Awesome. All right, I will put all of those links into the show notes. Thank you so much. Oh, my God, it was so good to catch up and see you and just awesome, awesome conversation. So thank you so much. Thank you. Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn