Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

Out With The Old, In With The New Advocacy with Bethany Snyder

December 08, 2021 Julia Campbell Season 1 Episode 18
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Out With The Old, In With The New Advocacy with Bethany Snyder
Show Notes Transcript

You have a voice and you need to use it.  If you're not at the table, you're going to be on the menu. But how can nonprofits effectively stand up for their missions, their budgets, and their clients in the legislative and political arenas? Are the words ""advocacy" and "lobbying" dirty words? 

My guest this week is Bethany Snyder, the founder of Snyder Strategies, a boutique consulting firm she formed to share and leverage her deep understanding of the advocacy world with nonprofit and membership-based organizations.

What I love about Bethany is that she's on a mission to do advocacy differently - no smoke-filled backrooms with shady characters making sketchy deals. 

Bethany has been on all sides of the advocacy world - as a grassroots advocacy director, a lobbyist, a consultant, a communications director, and a US Senate staffer. She knows how to engage your donors and volunteers and turn them into lifetime advocates and donors. 

Here are some of the topics we discussed:

  • Why and how education is different than advocacy and lobbying
  • How to show up and stand up for the issues that you care about and the problems that you aim to solve (and why it's not lobbying)
  • The idea of people-centered advocacy and what makes it revolutionary? 
  • How can nonprofits get started? What do they need to know when they're just starting out?

A Bethany Snyder quotable: "I think that we can wholeheartedly argue that the nonprofit sector is uniquely positioned to help make these critical decisions on policy, because we are closer to the people who are getting the services."

Connect with Bethany:
Twitter:   https://twitter.com/bethanysnydermn
LinkedIn:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethanysnyder/
Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/SnyderStrategies/
Do Advocacy Differently: https://www.snyderstrategies.me/do-advocacy-differently 

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About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements. Julia’s online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online. 

Clients include Mastercard , Facebook, GoFundMe Charity, Meals on Wheels America, the

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Julia Campbell:

Hello, and welcome to nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice. definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of nonprofit nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. So excited to be here with you today. We have a special guest someone I've been following online for quite a while and have never met. So I'm so excited to have her on the podcast. That's nice. Snyder is the founder of Snyder strategies. She is going to tell us all about that. Later on in the episode. She has been on all sides of the advocacy world as a grassroots advocacy director, a lobbyist, a consultant, a communications director, and a US Senate staffer which we need all the tea on that for sure. She's worked for a range of organizations, and she has a passion for ensuring that nonprofits and membership orgs use their voices and expertise to influence policies that impact those most in need. I absolutely love it. Welcome, Bethany. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you here. So let's begin, we always begin with your story. What led you to where you are today?

Bethany Snyder:

You know, I reflect on this a lot. So I am in the nonprofit advocacy space. So I work with organizations to pass policies. And so that's in the legislative arena. And the sometimes you'll call it the political arena. But we'll talk about that later the difference. But I was kind of that kid in high school who was always organizing stuff. I was a study planner. I was the rebel cross director, the cruise director, the rebel rouser. So if I just naturally played that part in my life, and then as I got older, I realized you can do that for a living. And that's grassroots advocacy. And so I really got my chops really, through feminism as one way into it. As I would say, I wouldn't call myself a young feminist. And then from there, I really got into health care policy. And yeah, and I work solely in the nonprofit space.

Julia Campbell:

Do you want to tell us who you worked for in the US Senate?

Bethany Snyder:

Sure. I can't. So I yeah. So my career, as I say I said peaked at 35. When I was senator Al Franken health care policy. Wow, LGBTQ outreach specialist. I worked in his State Office. Yes. Which is another thing we'll talk about people forget that all our lawmakers have people just right down the street from you. You don't have to go to DC to engage with your lawmakers, especially federal ones.

Julia Campbell:

Yes. Oh, that's right. Oh, we definitely need some tips on that. So tell me about the kind of work you do right now. How do you work with nonprofits?

Bethany Snyder:

Yeah, so the things I work with nonprofit, I typically work with nonprofits that already have some sort of legislative agenda. They already know that they are in the space to pass legislation, typically their membership based organizations, typically healthcare adjacent only because I have that policy expertise. So I can, and when someone talks about Meaningful Use, or the Affordable Care Act, I know what they're talking about. And they usually have some sort of legislative agenda, but they just haven't found the secret sauce to engage their members. They usually are very lobbyists, focus lobbyists, lead Government Relations lead, yet. They are membership organizations. So they have all these members that are sitting at the ready, who wants to engage, and they just haven't figured out how to most efficiently and happily do that.

Julia Campbell:

Amazing. So what do you say to an organization that comes to you or someone listening that says, well, we're a nonprofit, we're a 501, c three, we can't engage in advocacy we're not supposed to.

Bethany Snyder:

Yeah, so this is probably the number one myth in my sector, is that 501 c three orgs cannot engage in advocacy or lobbying. So some of them understand they can engage in app but maybe not direct lobby and that's absolutely not true. 501 c threes can engage in lobbying and advocacy. There are specific spending requirements, you know, spending limits you need to be cognizant of, but if you're just starting out, I mean, you will not hit that the called the H elective. You will not hit that you should talk to your you know, your lawyer or your CPA about that if that's something you're worried about. But first of all, most of what nonprofit To do his education, if you're talking, if you are out there trying to end homelessness and hunger, expand access to healthcare, expand immigrant rights access, most of your time is spent educating. Only when you go and talk to a lawmaker and say, will you pass this bill? will you support this piece of legislation? Is it consider lobbying? And so I would say even with organizations that do a ton of lobbying 90% of that is, is education, and a very small part of that is lobbying. So

Julia Campbell:

what's the difference? I think the key difference that nonprofit need to understand are something you mentioned earlier, what's the difference between legislative advocacy and political advocacy?

Bethany Snyder:

Yes, this definitely comes from the last question. So when in terms of the CIO 501, C, threes cannot engage in what I call big p politics, and there's even some allowances for that. So according to the IRS, those things are political candidates, political parties, and elections. So you can't say for example, if you're trying to, you know, End Homelessness that support this Democrats, because they want to end homelessness, or I think you should vote for so and so you can't say that. Or you can't just for example, invite all Democrats to your town hall forum. But you can't have a town hall forum and invite everyone, you can talk about people's voting records based on how they're voting and their issues just not based on what political party they are. And you can engage in elections when it comes to voter outreach, and voter registration, voter education, and many orgs do that. So again, when it comes to IRS, it's very narrow, what is considered political activity. But then there's a broad spectrum of other things that nonprofits can do, which is lobbying, which is advocacy, which is education.

Julia Campbell:

Oh, I love that. So that's something that I run into all the time. But first of all, if you know, anyone that knows me, that has ever read my writing or seen me speak, knows that I believe that all nonprofit work is inherently political. There's always someone out there trying to take away your funding, there's always someone out there that disagrees with what you do, even if you're an after school program. For Kids, your camp, you're an arts program. There's always some element of politics. But when I say that people hear partisan, that's what they hear. So when when nonprofits think of politics, they tend to think, oh, you need to take a side you need to take you need to be Republican, Democrat, Green Party, you know, independent, you need to take a side. And that's not at all what nonprofits should be doing or need to be doing or are doing effectively. So I think this is really important because especially as trusted institutions as falling, I really see our job as advocating for our worth, but also advocating for funding, you know, advocating for attention.

Bethany Snyder:

Absolutely. I always say that. So there's political issues big P and then there's political issues small P. So the eyes, the IRS, like I said those things, partisan things, partisan politics, parties, candidates and elections are big p things you want to stay away from. But there's also the things that are nonprofits work on Indian when I say this over and over again. Indeed homelessness, especially access to health care, fighting for immigrants are not partisan issues. Homelessness can strike anyone regardless, regardless of your party exactly who you are. Hunger can strike anyone. And these impact all communities, red ones, blue ones, conservative ones, liberal ones, what a progressive one. So just because an issue has been made political right in the world, or in my you know, our culture wars does not make it political. So for example, I belong to the queer community, the LGBT community. And so sometimes organization like oh, we that's too political. We don't want to dive into that. Being LGBT is not political. I am not a political thing. People have made it political have turned it into a partisan issue. And someday maybe fire hydrants will be turned into a partisan issue. I don't know. I'm sure they are. We've seen that Coronavirus, public health issues have been turned partisan. Like just because it is that does not mean it's that in the eyes of the IRS. And so I think it's incumbent upon nonprofits to rise above that. And to remind us that these are not partisan issues.

Julia Campbell:

I love that. Yes. I'm just like, gonna snap over here. Yes, women's bodies are political. wearing a mask is political. I'm sure a fire hydrant in some way is political, like save the fire hydrants. But I love what you said. And I think that that truly sticks with me and resonates with me, people and identity that's not political, and it's been turned into a political issue, just to feed the culture wars and feed certain people's agendas. So I hear that all the time from organizations. I don't want to Talk about current events because every even talking about like you said Coronavirus, even talking about the pandemic, even talking about vaccines is turning into a political, you know, battleground. But what I think I really believe nonprofits have a duty to stand up for the people that they serve and stand up for the issues that they care about the problem that they're solving, and advocating, for yourself for your funding for your people, talking to legislators and informing that's not necessarily lobbying. That's not necessarily advocacy, the way I think a lot of organizations might get confused. So I've been following you on the progressive exchange listserv, which everyone should be on. If you're a progressive, or interested in issues, progressive issues. It's such a fantastic resource. And I've just been following you and seeing everything you've been posting. And lately, you've been promoting this concept called people centered advocacy. So how do you define people centered advocacy? How is it different? And, you know, kind of what makes it revolutionary?

Bethany Snyder:

Yes. Oh, I love that. I do love that. It's revolutionary. And I feel so just like other sectors, the advocacy sector is going through a moment I say, a reckoning and it needs to. So historically, advocacy, and this will resonate with people. And I think why nonprofits stay away from it have been very insider ballgame focused deals and back smoky rooms focus, I call it the Google boys club. It's very much centered on a lobbyists relationship with the lawmaker. And that's how the advocacy sector or public policy space sector has been set up. And I think Luckily, rightfully so. It is changing, and that organizations that are maintaining that sort of status quo and their absolute program will be left behind people centered advocacy is about making sure that what's at the center of the campaign, are the people that are most impacted by that policy. Yes. Now, some people might hear what I'm saying, I think I am like a lobbyist basher which I'm not I was a lobbyists, lobbyists are critically important to the process. They know the people, they know, the players, you know, timing, they need to know, they know the rules are very important. But we need to be able to use that and use that to then lift up these voices of people who are historically underrepresented, unheard, and who are really at the center of these policies that we're trying to change. So a good example is, I call it the old way versus the new reality. So the old way was, the relationship was really between the lawmaker and the lobbyist that was centered, that was revered. People still make billions of dollars with other relationships. But what's changing is now, many lobbyists can't even get a meeting without a constituent. Doesn't matter how long I've known senator blah, blah, blah, if I can't go in there and show that it's relevant to their constituents and their state, I can't even get a meeting. Did that recently change? You know, it's starting to change slowly over time? Yeah, I've been trying to do some research, I think, I think it has to do with that the volatile tutorial bap has to do with is what much more transparency and Information and Communication. And if you don't mind me digressing a little bit or I'll know, to back up a little bit. One of the reasons I think it's so important, I just want to do some context setting so important for nonprofits to be involved in advocacy is a couple of things. First of all, staffers and lawmakers used to sit on in their positions for years, decades, we can talk about term limits later, whether that's a good or bad thing. But what that meant is that people could get an expertise in a policy area. So maybe you came I mean, although lawmakers are historically farmers and lawyers or whatever, that's that, you know, because whatever, but a lawmaker could sit on the health campaign Health Committee for decades, get to really know health care, or sit on the finance committee and really understand those budgets pursuing the Environment Committee and really understand gas market with the with the volatile that format, tenure and capital lawmaker 10 years or shorter, but I would say even more important staffer, 10 years or shorter. Most lawmakers have staff who are experts in this right. So I already mentioned I work for Senator Franken. I help with his health care portfolio. Senator Frank is an extremely smart guy. He was on the HELP Committee Health Education, Labor and Pensions. That's just one committee. Well, energy and environment, Veterans Affairs, Indian Affairs caging committee, even the smartest Bob in the janitor cannot know all those things. Then even at this healthcare person, I had to know everything from insurance markets, to pediatric dentistry, to medical devices, you know, like you can like the brain. So what that means is there is a gap of knowledge, gap of knowledge and Capitol hills and city councils across America. nonprofits can play a critical role in filling that expertise gap. When I work for a Senate, my senator, if I needed to know something about juvenile diabetes, I could sit and research. Do I have time to do that? No, I wanted to contact the person who I could trust. Who could tell me is this bill gonna be good for Minnesotans who have juvenile diabetes. And so the private sector wants to step up and do this. And I think that we can wholeheartedly argue that the nonprofit sector is uniquely positioned to help make these Colonel kill decisions on policy, we are closer to the people who are getting the services. And I think that's my number one value proposition. Hey, there,

Julia Campbell:

I'm interrupting this episode to share an absolutely free training that I created that's getting nonprofits of all sizes, big results. Sure, you've been spending hours on social media, but what can you actually show for it? With all this posting and instagramming and tick talking? Does it really translate into action? In my free training, I'll show you exactly how to take people from passive fans to passionate supporters. And I'll give you specific steps to create social media content that actually converts head on over to nonprofits, that convert.com. Again, that's nonprofitsthatconvert.com and start building a thriving social media community, for your nonprofit right now, without a big team, lots of tech overwhelm or getting stuck on the question, What do I do next? Let me show you how it's done. I can't wait to see what you create. This is what I tell a lot of my clients when they're just starting out trying to get PR, like trying to get publicity, visibility and talk to reporters, I said, you have to find the one reporter probably one reporter, if you're lucky, that covers this issue, because they cannot possibly be an expert on all issues. And it's just like you said, there are so there's such a wide variety, such a breadth and depth of things that lawmakers need to understand and know about. And I'm sure that they would appreciate being informed by the nonprofit's. So actually, that leads me to my next question. How can nonprofits get started? Like what do they need to know when they're just starting out?

Bethany Snyder:

Well, I think the first thing is to look around and see who's doing this work. Right. And so almost all the time and nonprofit advocacy, it's coalition based, rarely do you find is one nonprofit off Do you know, I think all advocacy should be coalition based. Because if you're a single constituency issue, that is not a good thing. You want to show that your issue resonates. It has a broad coalition, diverse voices. So first, look around, see who's doing this work, who is at the table, and then go most nonprofit Coalition's Are you can just there are Coalition's where it's pay to play, as we call it, like you have to provide some sort of resources to be involved in those a little bit more sophisticated, blah, blah, blah. But most times, these Coalition's are looking for people looking for organizations to join. So just go and ask that I get to the table, listen, send your comms person or the ED or your Deputy Director, just to listen to the code discussion and think, how can we what is our unique role in this? Are we service providers? Do we have unique access to the people that are at the heart of this policy? Um, do we do research? I mean, you just got to think where you're sitting in the butt. And I also tell my clients, if you're not at the table, you're going to be on the menu. That is something that is very important to nonprofits. I think when I talk about why they should be involved, I kind of keep going back. Yes. So you're not Yeah, if you're not at the table, you're going to be on the menu. And I think nonprofits already feel like you're on the menu. And so you should definitely be at these tables. So go to the tables, sit at the tables, listen to the conversation, and then almost all Coalition's do sign up, the easiest thing you can do is do a sign on letter, our organization agrees that we should be ending homelessness through this policy, and so easy to do. And then you can tell your donors about it, you can tell your members about even tell your supporters about it.

Julia Campbell:

If there is not a table, do you recommend creating one, or just maybe looking harder for one?

Bethany Snyder:

Looking harder? I just can't imagine that. Unless you're a very niche issue. I can't imagine there's already not if your industry has anything to do with public policy, there is something our people are talking about it now whether it'll be in transparent, you have to go dig for it. That might be another thing but or maybe it is to starting a new coalition. I mean, that takes a lot of time and energy. And if you're just starting out, I might not recommend that. But eventually that's gonna have to be part of the strategy down the line.

Julia Campbell:

What are some of the biggest pitfalls and biggest mistakes I think that nonprofits make when they're starting out or even when they've been doing it for a while, like some warnings some things to avoid?

Bethany Snyder:

So what I did was I went without a membership again, membership organization. And these are like think about I would like like medical societies right or like remembers pay to be part of it, maybe a professional organization. So one is a lot of things these folks do often is they don't run in campaign mode, and I think why nonprofits do this as well, like, when you are in the middle of a legislative session and ran a campaign, you need to operate in campaign mode. That means you are meeting more than once a week, perhaps regularly about an issue, you know, legislations like baseball, it's gonna be real slow, and then all of a sudden, things are just gonna happen, and you're gonna have something happen, you know, yes. But a lot of times gonna be so you just have to be ready. So when those things are happening, you have a mechanism in place, you should not once a bill is introduced, you should not be going to your board and being like, should we you should already know, yeah, you're not going to your breadboard and asking them, can we support this, those things might happen things, obviously bills get turned into other bills, but then you should also have guardrails around it, okay, this is our we have red lines, this is our red line, we will not accept anything within this, outside of these lines, is what your government affairs team just do their magic. Don't micromanage them. So you, we only need you to come back to the board for these specific things, right? Just put all those parameters out in front, so you're not stymied by your own little bureaucracy.

Julia Campbell:

Right. Right. So no, that's really a good point. And this leads me to my next question, what channels do you find are the most effective? Because I know You talk a lot about digital. You're very involved in the digital world, the digital landscape, I'm sure probably old school phone calls and meetings as much as we can do right now in the current climate. But what other channels digital or otherwise, do you find to be the most effective for advocacy?

Bethany Snyder:

So there's two ways to look at this. One is how is your so I've worked with a lot of advocacy efforts aren't successful because their own like internal team? So first is how is your team communicating with each other? How is your coalition communicating with each other? Right? So there's those communication channels? I think orgs haven't gotten enough on I think slack is underused, in the advocacy sector, your coalition create a free Slack channel just for your coalition members where you can, especially now a lot of lobbyists, or government affairs, people, like typically, a lot of things happen outside the doors of the committee hearing, right? They're talking but everyone's sitting and staring at their computers. Now, how do those lobbyists be like, Oh, my God, so and so just said this, what are we going to do? You should be on Slack, you should have that instantaneous communication that everyone can see. So if they're not, they're not part of it, they can go back and look at it and are tied into what's going on. But then there's the communication between you and your supporters, or your donors, and then their communication with their lawmakers.

Julia Campbell:

So that's where people power to advocacy.

Bethany Snyder:

Yes. So first, you got to think about how do we talk to our people, our people, our members, our donors and supporters about this issue? And then how do we get them to talk to their lawmakers about us? You know, we all I think the same pitfalls that befall other communications professionals do as to Facebook only gets in front of people they let you get in front of Yep, email is good. But are they seeing at the right time? I think text is incredibly effective, ratably effective, and advocacy, you can click and just send an email from there, you can click to call, if you are having your advocates have to look up contact information for the lawmakers. You're 17 steps behind. Yeah, that was just no one.

Julia Campbell:

I can't tell the last time I've done that.

Bethany Snyder:

I am brilliant, got big balls and advocacy. I might even have my state representative. In my phone, I may write 1% of the population. Sure. If I don't, I rarely going to take the time to do it. No, you say Click here to send this letter and click here to find your lawmaker, you're already not having a successful campaign. Right?

Julia Campbell:

So do as much upfront as you can give people this is this is a lot like what I teach when talking about fundraising campaigns or crowdfunding campaigns give people as much information as you possibly can, so that they can just cut and paste it and share it for you. Because yes, they're not going to go and look and scroll and pinch and cut and paste to do any, you know, females. So I love that I've been a big fan of the text advocacy. So I am on several different texts lists. Now that it's the political climate is not quite as urgent. But certainly around the election i was on so many different text chains, like call your legislator about this, call your legislator about that email about this email about that. But I appreciate it. I didn't do it every single time. But the ease of it, and the way that it fit into my daily life. I think that's probably one of the trends hopefully going forward that we want to make advocacy as easy as possible for the normal lay person. So any tools that that people can use to make things easier and seamless, and frictionless I think, are are great tools.

Bethany Snyder:

Absolutely. And there is a whole sector of advocacy tools out there just like there is for fundraising tools. Yep, there's dozens of them. And I can talk I mean, I talk to my clients about what makes sense for your organization. But there are dozens of tools. But another reason those tools are so great in addition to making it easy when you appreciate this as huge about fundraising, his data and metrics, I don't understand when I see an email that tells me to click here to download this, whatever and then go, how do they know I ever contacted my lawmaker? Yeah. How do they know how many calls are going in there? I mean, now these Abacus tools aren't perfect. I may just pick up the phone call that won't be recorded, but at least you have some kind of baseline. Okay, we know that 100 calls went into senator someone's office. So then when your lobby goes in there, your lobbyist, they can say, Senator, so and so I know you got 100 calls yesterday. Yeah. I mean, how powerful is that? Amazing. Another pitfall though, I just want to go back to that. Sure. You got any other question? I see this a lot as well. That drives me crazy. Giving multiple options. Yes. So you send me an actual or instead of a tweet, one thing tweet at your lawmaker here to call them or three? And I'm like, Well, which one? Do you want me to? You're the? Which one do you want me to do? Do you want me to tweet at them? Do you want me to call them or do you want to email them? like giving your I know people think giving him multiple options you they're more likely to but actually people get stymied. You know this when you're looking at the serials and like, I don't know, what is it called? decision? paralysis? Oh, yeah. Analysis, paralysis, analysis? paralysis? Yeah. I just want you as the expert to tell me what I need to do. I know what to do. And when I don't know what to do.

Julia Campbell:

No ABS so lewdly. A confused mind always says no. Yes. So make it clear, make it compelling, make it concise and make it just absurdly easy to do. And that's you're going to get conversions. So I want to talk a little bit like how can people work with you? Do you want to tell us about this new slack community as well that you've created?

Bethany Snyder:

So yeah, so I do I just create a new slack mood because I am on a mission to have to change the advocacy sector and do advocacy differently. So I started a chat Slack channel called do advocacy differently. And these are for advocacy professionals, who are tired of the status quo, who are tired, the good old boys club, who are tired of lobbyists and government relations, people putting themselves at the center of the campaign. So you can go onto my website at Snyder strategies.me. And there's a little button up there called do xe differently, and it talks about the Slack channel and how you can join. But if you're interested if your organization is interested in doing advocacy, or if you do advocacy, and it's just, you're missing that, that secret sauce, as I say, um, you can find all my information on my website as well, which is Snyder strategies.me. But I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn.

Julia Campbell:

So you can find me on LinkedIn, like blowing up. Yeah, so all my guests, all my guests, it's like, you know, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn blown up. Yeah, LinkedIn, I do a lot of share things. I share anecdotes, I share things that I hear from lobbyists. So you can follow me there. Nice. Okay, great. All right. So we are going to put all of those links in the show notes. We're going to link to Snyder strategies, the do advocacy differently, slack community, and where you can connect with Bethany on link to end. All right. Well, thank you so much, Bethany, for being here today. I really appreciate it. We could talk for hours and hours about advocacy. But I do, I think it's so important for organizations to understand that they have a voice and they need to use it. So thank you so much for being here today. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, hey there, I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. And you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn