How to Keep More of Your Donors with nik castle

This episode is sponsored by my friends at Instil, a holistic donor relationship management platform on a mission to revolutionize nonprofit technology. We are hosting a free webinar to show you how to manage donor communications in the digital age, using technology and social media. Our goal is to build long-term donor loyalty in a short-term world. Learn more by clicking here.

Every interaction with donors should be meaningful and intentional, but without proactive planning it's easy for things to slip through the cracks.

In this episode, I’m joined by nik castle, Demand Generation Manager at Instil, a modern, purpose-built platform that helps nonprofits cultivate deeper, more holistic relationships with their community.

We review Instil’s framework for donor cultivation-Connect, Interact, Nurture. The idea is simple: with an intentional and proactive approach, every single interaction with a supporter can set you up for the next one.

nik details concrete steps for implementing marketing and fundraising best practices for creating long-term donor loyalty and “one to many empathy”.

With professional roots in data analytics, nik castle leverages seven years of experience as the technical arm of the marketing teams they have worked on to support a revolution in data management for nonprofit development teams. In her current role at Instil, nik is dedicated to helping scale authentic relationship building with supporters through one-to-many empathy that’s facilitated—not limited—by data and technology. Outside of work, nik is deeply invested in studying and practicing both individual and organizational psychology, as well as serving their art collective as a community organizer and tending to her garden and three pets, Angelina, Jinx, and Tessie.

Connect with nik

• https://www.instil.io/solution 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/nik-castle/ 
• https://www.instagram.com/weareinstil
• https://blog.instil.io/infographic-how-to-turn-event-attendees-into-major-donors 

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.  

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

0:00:01 - Julia Campbell
Are you looking to engage your donors more effectively and create deeper relationships with them? Well, you're in luck. This episode is sponsored by my friends at instill that's I-N-S-T-I-L, a holistic donor relationship management platform, on a mission to revolutionize nonprofit technology. Together, we're hosting a free webinar to show you how to manage donor communications in the digital age, using technology and social media. Our goal is to build long-term donor loyalty in a short-term world. Learn more at jcsocialmarketingcom. forward slash instill. that's J-C socialmarketingcom. forward slash I-N-S-T-I-L. See you then. 

Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm gonna sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi everyone, welcome back to Nonprofit Nation, thrilled to be here with you today. wherever you're listening, i'm your host, julia Campbell. 

The question that I'm posing today how can we build lasting donor relationships? We know that every interaction with donors should be meaningful and intentional, but without proactive planning, it's very easy for things to slip through the cracks. Today we're going to talk about some strategic ways that we can cultivate deeper and more holistic relationships with our communities and with our donors. I'm thrilled to have my new friend, nick Castle, here on the podcast. with professional roots in data analytics, nick leverages seven years of experience as the technical arm of the marketing teams that have worked to support a revolution in data management for nonprofit development teams. Her current role at instill Nick is dedicated to helping scale authentic relationship building with supporters through one-to-many empathy that's facilitated, not limited, by data and technology. Outside of work, nick is deeply invested in studying and practicing both individual and organizational psychology, as well as serving their art collective as a community organizer and tending to her garden in three pets Angelina, jinx and Tessie. Welcome, nick, thanks for being here. 

0:03:17 - nik castle
Thank you so much for having me. You know, mostly I see that written and then out loud. That's a lot. 

0:03:22 - Julia Campbell
It's a lot, it's fantastic, and we have to know what kind of pets they are? 

0:03:27 - nik castle
Oh, great question. Tessie is a dog and Angelina and Jinx are cats, and they are softy sweeties. That's what we call them in our household. 

0:03:36 - Julia Campbell
Oh, love that. So we've talked a little bit. We're obviously partnering on this podcast instill is the sponsor of this particular episode and all of the episodes this month But I want to hear more about your story how you got started in nonprofit work and why the focus on donor cultivation. 

0:03:56 - nik castle
Yeah, absolutely So. In this particular chapter of my focus on nonprofit work, i got started about a year and a half ago really focusing in more on the fundraising side, and the reason that I'm really drawn to applying skills that I've accumulated over a really broad quilt of different kinds of experience by this point is what always really motivates me is my work with community organizing in my art collective and it's not a nonprofit yet, but we'll get there And it's just been something that has contributed so much to my personal evolution to be so involved in giving of myself to community And at the same time, i see a lot of challenges there in terms of bringing those things to scale, and a lot of my professional and academic experience has focused on that side of things. So over the past year and a half in particular, those things have been coming together a lot more And it's been really nourishing for me. 

0:04:55 - Julia Campbell
So in my work, i teach nonprofits social media marketing, email marketing and we work on donor acquisition, mostly how to market to and acquire new donors using online tools, how to raise awareness, and I know that you in your work, you focus on donor cultivation and building deeper relationships. So give us the elevator pitch. Why should we focus on donor cultivation? 

0:05:23 - nik castle
So I think most of the time it's major donors that are traditionally getting a cultivation treatment to really bring them into the fold. But ultimately you don't really know where your next major donors are lying, and new donor acquisition can often cost 50 to 100% more than you might collect from a first gift. So for real return on investment in that effort, imagine a state where there's a sort of scalable sort of set it and almost forget it cultivation process in place for that scalable portion that can help you get more ROI And then from there it can deepen into something that's a little bit more detailed and personalized for different cohorts and folks. So you never know, a future major donor could come in through digital channels, through exactly those same acquisition efforts that you focus on all the time, and with a little bit of partnering with cultivation, there could be a lot more value for effort coming out of it. 

0:06:16 - Julia Campbell
That's a big focus of mine getting more value for effort, getting more value for effort, and how we treat major donors as opposed to how we treat every other donor. We always have names for people It's individual donors or annual gift donors, event donors, major donors and not treating donors as the wonderful humans as they are. And I think oftentimes what I teach, what I try not to teach, but I think what is the end result of some of the teaching out there around social media and email marketing is that transactional approach. So we think of asking for donations as a transaction And then we don't really think about what the journey is and what happens on the other end And we don't really think about it from the donor's point of view. We don't really have empathy for our donor and our audience. 

So I think that's incredibly important. So you have a framework and still has a framework for donor cultivation, and I love what you put on your website. You wrote. The idea is simple With an intentional and proactive approach, every single interaction with a supporter can set you up for the next one. So can you talk about the Connect, interact and Nurture framework? 

0:07:34 - nik castle
Definitely We'll start general and then get more detailed as we go. So that overall framework that you were talking about, we're having that intention, having that proactivity. Those are kind of the two main keywords behind the whole model Is holding two things in mind across every interaction that you have with a supporter, and those two things are one, what are you offering to that person? And two, what is the goal for deepening the relationship that you have in mind for each one of those interactions, so that can unfold across three different stages. That's where that Connect, interact, nurture name comes from. But even outside of considering those three chapters, the one most simple way to distill it down is just, every time there's outreach going on, whether it's one to one, one to many or something in between What's the offering and what's the goal? And just think about that How can this interaction set me up for the next one, whether it's learning something about it, about the person that I can use for personalizing future mass communications, or creating a little excuse to follow up, or anything in between? 

0:08:43 - Julia Campbell
So how do you put the framework into practice? 

0:08:48 - nik castle
Great question. Okay, so we have an infographic that we made that gives some examples of how this might work, so maybe we can coordinate how to share that with folks if they want to. Yes, we'll put it in the show notes, awesome. 

0:08:57 - Julia Campbell
Thanks so much So. 

0:08:59 - nik castle
Our infographic dives into the example of the Connect, interact and Nurture framework in practice for following up after an event. So imagine you've just had your Gala completed, or Gala depending on what side of the fence you're on on that one Gala. 

0:09:15 - Julia Campbell
Gala, Gala. 

0:09:16 - nik castle
Gala, gala, i've heard Gala as well. I think that was a good way to just sidestep the whole thing. But anyway, getting back into Connect, interact and Nurture, if you've just had an event, you know, you know that you want to offer somebody some appreciation for attending. So we're going to be sending out a thank you email to this cohort of people who just attended your event. And then the Connect, interact and Nurture framework invites us to consider there, what's the goal? What's the goal that's going to drive this relationship forward, moving on. 

So, rather than just getting sucked immediately into the shuffle of everything else that's on the to-do list after planning for the event, let's set ourselves up for success. So we might ask this cohort of people like hey, what was it about the event that made you feel the most connected to our mission, or what, in general, makes you feel the most connected to our mission? And that way we're thinking back to the logic around how people give more as a result of usually one of two things either clarity on how their gifts are used and how they're connected to impact, or a relationship with an organization that has built trust. So we want to keep those two things in mind essentially every time you're thinking about okay, what should my goal be for those interactions? So in this case, we don't have a gift that's used to connect, to impact. So we're relationship building, we're building trust, we're building on shared experience and trusting that the rest will come. 

0:10:43 - Julia Campbell
I love that you said what is my goal for these interactions. I think we are often so reactive that we don't spend a lot of time being proactive, because it's just like you said we get back to the office or we are putting out fires. We have so much on our plates, we have so many emails and messages that we have to deal with And we don't spend enough time being intentional about these interactions and about these communications. And that can really help And people know that. People can see when you've just sort of fired off an email or if you are distracted or if you think that you're thinking about 10 million other things while you're talking to them. So having that intention, i think, is really key. And yeah, you talked about using cohorts for this process, which I think is an interesting term, and I have not heard it in the donor cultivation space. So what's the benefit of that? Can you say more about that? 

0:11:40 - nik castle
Yes, i really can, but I want to comment on something that you just said. First, i think it's really beautiful that you're talking about how people can notice when we're just firing something off, and even just firing something off it does take some effort. It's a context switch that we have to do. Every time you're switching from one context to another, it's drawing your attention away from what you're doing And it is effort that you're expending. So if the end result of that is to send something out that's going to be received as non-profit not developing the relationship further, but giving that person a sense of like I'm just a number then the value for the effort is maybe negative or at least neutral, and putting in just a little bit more effort into it would be something that would bring a lot more value to the relationship moving forward And yes, i'm super delighted to talk about cohorts, so I'll jump into that If you think about, like the Connect, interact, nurture framework we haven't visualized as a trail guide in that infographic that I mentioned, yes, I have it pulled up. 

0:12:43 - Julia Campbell
I love it. I got the link to it too. Cool, i love it, with the bear reading the map and there's, like animals, campfires. Yes, i love it. 

0:12:52 - nik castle
It just brings a lot of like I don't know wholesomeness to the whole thing, which I love for talking about nurturing relationships And the trail guide Connect, interact, Nurture. It is visualized in a linear fashion And we do talk a lot and still about how relationship building is not really a linear process And at the same time, visualizing things bumping back and forth across a bunch of different chapters can be a little complicated. So what really helps me to bridge together some of the simplicity of that model with the complexity of how these things work in real life is thinking about cohorts. So you have, in reality, a bunch of different donors, a bunch of different supporters in your community who are at different stages of this process all the time. And I think this is where scaling relationship building gets pretty hard, because if you think about it in the context of just one event, follow up or just one donor, it's easy to understand where they're at, what kind of a touch point they need, what kind of an offering you could give them and what kind of a goal you could keep in mind for that one person or for that one event. But when you step back and look at your community as a whole, it gets so complex that it's very understandably overwhelming to think about how to put it into practice, and that's where cohorts come in for me. 

So I'm coming into a lot of this from a data management background myself, and list segmentation is something that I've spent a lot of time thinking through and doing, and I love cohorts because it lets you segment out sections of your database, sections of your community that you have, something that you know is true across all of them, and they can be based in a couple of different things. So people who have just attended an event and maybe come in contact with your nonprofit for the first time could all be members of one cohort. That's new to being kind of in the very early stages of getting snuggled into your community And at the same time. Others might not be. They might have like a fuzzier start in terms of joining a cohort, but they do have a lot of things in common. For example, existing major donors in your network or sustainers who have been around for a really long time. You might consider those as one cohort. To that you're really learning a lot from. 

So if you're applying that connect, interact and nurture initially connecting with a new donor to having a two way interaction phase, rather than just single sidedly trying to engage them and then eventually nurturing them through the process. If you're thinking about that through the lens of all of the different cohorts that it's happening with all the time, they actually can be supportive of one another. So this is, for me, where that value for effort concept really takes off. It's fractal growth at that point, because if you're thinking about that cohort of your major donors and sustainers who you don't want to treat as an ATM but you do want to tap and keep the relationship going like, people really love the feeling of giving of themselves to something and it doesn't necessarily need to be money all the time. So asking them for their opinions, asking them for their engagement, asking them for the reasons why they connect to the mission, can be something that ultimately sets you up in a really valuable way for getting more effective, efficient at nurturing future cohorts that are coming through. 

So if you interview, for example, your strongest supporter cohort and understand like, oh okay, these people are really connected to the mission because of the program that we have in terms of health and wellness, but there's also this pattern that I'm noticing emerge in their responses that has nothing to do with one program or another, but has to do with the impact that they've noticed that we have on our community in terms of something on the softer side. 

So it's hard to quantify those things. But if you try to ask every single person in your database what draws you to connect to their mission, i mean, first of all you're lucky if they all respond to that survey at all right. But then if you end up with a bunch of Well, that's a data point too. It is, that's true, that's absolutely true. But ultimately, finding the balance behind getting story data either in your database or in your own understanding of how people connect with your mission, versus something that you could use for a list segmentation, there's a really big difference. Knowing a multi-paragraph story about why everybody feels connected to your mission would be really, really awesome. But who has the time to read all of that or write a script to pull out a key phrase to use for a list segmentation? 

0:17:34 - Julia Campbell
Until chatGPT takes over our brains, we can't do that right now. 

0:17:39 - nik castle
Yeah, please tell us all the stories that you want and just ask chatGPT. Go through my database, please, and tell me how I can segment my people. 

0:17:47 - Julia Campbell
I love the infographic because it has not just the journey, but it has proactive ways to connect, intentional interaction, ideas like nurturing ingredients. And then it also has not just your goal. This is your goal, This is what you hope to accomplish in this piece of the framework, But this is what you're offering. So oftentimes, when we talk about donor cultivation and building these deeper relationships, these holistic relationships, we're always talking about our goals, what we want to accomplish. What are some success metrics? how do we know that we've accomplished what we want to accomplish? But I love and appreciate that you have this other side of the coin, which is what are you offering? What are you offering that's going to actually? because that's a relationship, right, It's not just a one-sided interaction. 

0:18:39 - nik castle
Absolutely. I think that there can definitely be issues when the focus is solely placed on either side of the coin. I think, for example, if someone's fully focused only on the offering and a little trepidatious about the idea of having a goal and wanting to drive something further, then what can be the end result of that is a lot of really awesome relationships that are personal but that aren't really connected back to the organization behind the fundraiser and that aren't ultimately going to move the needle We can talk all the time about, like don't be too transactional, but without the goal in mind as well, it could be easy to fall too far in the other direction, as well. 

0:19:23 - Julia Campbell
I love the case studies. I love to talk about case studies and examples. There are a lot of case studies on the instill website, and one that caught my eye was the organization it's unmouthful Global Labor Justice, international Labor Rights Forum How they increased their donor recaptures by 84%. What are some steps that they took? What are they doing that's working so well? 

0:19:50 - nik castle
I love their story. 

0:19:50 - Julia Campbell
I mean 84%. That's amazing. 

0:19:52 - nik castle
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They've had really good metrics across the board. I mean, the 84% donor recapture is, for sure, the standout but The answer to what they're doing so well, based on what I understand about their story and I'm sure that there's plenty more going on underneath the hood from my perspective I'm not even seeing all the time but there's two main things that stand out to me. One is they have a real strong clarity and simplicity of vision, they being their development team in terms of what they're trying to accomplish from year to year. So they were telling me their story around how, when they were getting started, global Labor Justice and International Labor Rights Forum were two distinct organizations that merged, hence the long name. So in their process of coming together, they spent their first year really focusing on their SOP, so having their standard, standardizing their operating procedure, getting their tech in line and making sure that they understood what was going on with their data and their operational process. They really, really, really delved into that and focused on having a foundation building year. They really gave themselves time to focus on that, while, of course, juggling their events and everything else going on in the background, but that was just something that they really prioritized. 

From the next year. They had that same clarity of vision and purpose to their next initiative, which was donor engagement. One of the things that they told me about is they were really keeping their asks and their appreciation separate. So every time they were reaching out to a donor, they were really intentional about how is this going to be received, keeping that empathy in mind of what's the way that I want this donor to feel when I reach out to them. And I feel like that really is taking the concept of donor engagement to donor interactivity in the way that we're striving for, where it invites that two-way connection. They ended up winning a lot of their donors back who hadn't given, who had lapsed in that year through following that framework. So, both in terms of their overall goals and strategy and the finer tactics that they were using, i think those things worked really well together to lend them those results. 

0:22:08 - Julia Campbell
So is sort of the next step from donor cultivation, donor interactivity. 

0:22:12 - nik castle
You know donor cultivation man, we use these terms in this case, yeah, we don't even. 

0:22:18 - Julia Campbell
donor appreciation, cultivation, donor thinking, donor relations is a whole big, gigantic term. 

0:22:27 - nik castle
Definitely Okay. So if we've got donor relations as one big umbrella and then donor cultivation as a smaller umbrella under that interaction, i think it's about donor interaction. It's more of a mechanism, right, so it could be considered a smaller umbrella in the cultivation space. My point is they're not distinctly different from each other. Facilitating interaction is a part of the cultivation process, but for me, cultivation is a little bit more like a chronological phase in the donor journey, whereas interactivity is something that should be at the forefront throughout the whole time. 

0:23:05 - Julia Campbell
That makes a lot of sense. So how do you think nonprofits can adapt this into their own fundraising work, like what are some other concrete steps that nonprofits of all sizes can take to increase, like you said, that two-way communication, that donor interactivity, and to incorporate some of these tactics into their work? 

0:23:27 - nik castle
Yeah, definitely, i think, a big thing there is just giving yourself a little bit more time and space to engage with the idea of how empathetically is this person going to respond to what I'm offering there? 

but that's not a concrete step. So, with that background in mind, i'm going to return back to something that I said earlier, which is that we know that when donors are asked about what would unlock their full giving potential, it's often one or both of these two things that they say, and one is clarity on how the gift is used and how it's connected to impact, whether that's a gift they've already given or one that they're being asked to give And the other is a strong relationship with the organization. That builds trust. So what I would say is think about how, for you and in your organization, those two things come together. So what is a trust-based, relationship building angle towards how the gift is used? For me, that's understanding why the donor is connected to the mission and then telling them how the gift is going to be used and connected to impact through the lens of what matters to them and not the lens of what matters to you. 

So, some of that data collection, segmentation, cohort stuff that I was talking about earlier. That's the how, that's the foundation that needs to get built within your organization in order to be able to do that at scale. But regardless of what percentage of your current community, you have the data right now to be able to scale it up or not, the point is just start wherever you can, whether it's manually, one-to-one or in a few really small groups, but that don't make up your full community or not. Where do those things come together? Where is it that you know how your donors would value a gift through their own lens and where do you need to do some more digging and start there? 

0:25:23 - Julia Campbell
Wow, there's like a million more questions. So I typically ask how small nonprofits can start, but I think you actually did give me really some in this last answer, some really good information and advice there. But what about, like bigger nonprofits? I think that we think, oh, bigger nonprofits have it all figured out, but where do they typically have room to grow in this area? 

0:25:48 - nik castle
I don't know that there's anybody in this world inside or outside of the nonprofit sector that has everything figured out. 

0:25:54 - Julia Campbell
I just sent an email to my entire list. That was wrong, just yesterday So not all. We do not have it all figured out. 

0:26:04 - nik castle
Oh no, and if somebody does, i don't want to know about it. I'm happier thinking that perfection is a myth for sure. 

0:26:10 - Julia Campbell
Maybe Beyonce, but I don't know. 

0:26:12 - nik castle
She's got a whole staff. 

0:26:14 - Julia Campbell
That's true, Oh yeah. 

0:26:15 - nik castle
A whole staff. I mean, i don't actually know, i'm just assuming. If I were Beyonce I would have a whole staff. Okay, but back to the question, nick, i think mid-level giving programs are one area where I do see a lot of that, because the process is really there in terms of like cultivation often being discussed as a major donor cultivation aspect, but there's always a way to try to give that major donor treatment to a broader array of people. So I think there's not an organization out there that has found all of their cohorts that they could potentially be segmenting in that way. And then the other thing is more collaboration. I think the bigger that an organization gets, the more silos come in terms of process and data. 

0:27:02 - Julia Campbell
I agree. Wow, that's so interesting because small nonprofits think, oh, we don't have the resources. But I always say your strength is that you don't necessarily have as much bureaucracy and 27 departments to run things by, you don't have as many steps. You have a lot more freedom and flexibility, hopefully. So I love that. Use your strengths and work with what you have, and just always with an eye for improvement. So I have a couple more questions just about you and your work life, because I love to talk to people about how their personal and professional experience influences their work, and yours straddles like marketing, nonprofit tech and psychology. So what do you see as the overlaps, what's the connective tissue and how do they all inform each other? 

0:27:54 - nik castle
Yeah, great question. It's a close knit web up here. For me, i think, the central one, that is the psychology interest. So I got my start in data analysis and then relatively quickly moved into the marketing space And, to be totally honest, there were so many things about marketing that felt ethically concerning for me, ethically, concerning Very nice, very pragmatic, i can say it Yeah, not icky, gross, awful Yeah. 

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think at its worst and probably even at its most common and depending on who you ask that's the point of it Like, marketing can be quite manipulative. But I do believe that at its best it can be an exercise in one to many empathy. And as long as what you're marketing and I think in the impact sector this is a lot easier to do As long as what you're marketing can be of service, of use and of support to someone and who isn't hungry for purpose these days, looking for ways that they can feel like they can make an impact Marketing is one to many empathy and you're connecting with the person about what it is that they're hungry for, that they're looking for, that they need help with, whatever the case may be. That's where the empathy comes in. 

It's not one size fits all, connecting those people to the opportunity to have that need filled with what you're offering and in the fundraising space, like there's a really powerful offering of belonging, of purpose, of being of use. All of these things are really impactful and necessary to human life. So accessing that tapping into that idea of one to many empathy, i think it's easier in the sector than it is in a lot of other spaces where you might be marketing, and my interest and my research in psychology does drive a lot of how what I just said comes into practice, often in terms of segmentation. So that's where the data analysis comes in. I went to school for applied economics and did a bunch of data modeling and things like that, so that's just a tool. Sometimes I wonder if it's one of those things where it's like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Like, is that me? List segmentation Maybe, but is it useful? Anyway, i think so, so I'll stick with it. 

0:30:20 - Julia Campbell
What do you wish? you knew when you were just starting out. 

0:30:23 - nik castle
Oh boy, i really wish I knew what I know now about how to collaborate with my own mind. How to collaborate with my own mind. 

0:30:31 - Julia Campbell
How to collaborate with my own mind. Oh yeah, i think this is something I'm going to really have to listen to closely, okay, well in case it hasn't. 

0:30:40 - nik castle
So one of the sectors that I'm really passionate about in the nonprofit space is neurodivergent, autistic and ADHD self-advocacy. That's because that's my brain. I'm autistic, i have ADHD and there are a lot of challenges there. And there are also a lot of things there that have really been a foundation of how I've approached my career in the way that I have, including this sort of like quilted process of developing experience across a lot of different interests that somehow are finally starting to come together in the past couple of years in ways that are useful to people and to organizations. But there are a lot of expectations, i think, around how we're supposed to show up professionally. 

What is productivity? What does it mean to be of service? What does it mean to be productive? What does it mean to have value as a human being? that are all tied up into these things And to collaborate with my own mind? for me means setting aside, and it's not even what do people expect from me. It's what judgments and assumptions am I placing on others, that they're expecting of me, which may or may not be true. So if I were to boil it down into one point, that's maybe a little bit more generally applicable. What I wish I knew is that if you feel like you know what someone expects of you the chances that you really don't You know that there's some expectation of what someone expects which pretty meta at that level And at that point, with so many assumptions there, just do what you got to do. Just do a connect for you. 

Put the effort where you can. 

0:32:23 - Julia Campbell
I love that. I really think that's very helpful. I want to say, before we wrap up, that we are doing a webinar together. Yes, it's on June 28th at 1.30pm Eastern And you can sign up for it. My website will have the link to the registration page, jcsocialmarketingcom slash instill i-n-s-t-i-l, and the topic is donor communications in the digital age ways to use technology and social media to build donor relationships. I love it. I can't wait to do that webinar. I think it's going to be really incredible, so I'm just thrilled that we're working on that together. Other than the webinar, where can people find out more about you, nick, and where can they connect with you? 

0:33:10 - nik castle
I think the best place to find me is on LinkedIn Nick and IK Castle on LinkedIn, and if I'm doing that thing every once in a while where I disappear off of LinkedIn, you can poke instill social media channels as well. I keep up with those here and there as well. 

0:33:25 - Julia Campbell
I know sometimes we just all have to take a break. A little digital detox once in a while Fantastic. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. I hope you can join me on the webinar, but, nick, thanks for being so open and honest and vulnerable and just sharing your expertise with us. 

0:33:40 - nik castle
My absolute pleasure, thank you. 

0:33:48 - Julia Campbell
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. I hope you really enjoyed today's conversation. Make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review, because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell 7-7. Keep changing the world, you non-profit unicorn.