Standing Up For The Sector with Shannon McCracken

In this episode of Nonprofit Nation, I sit down with Shannon McCracken, the founding CEO of The Nonprofit Alliance (TNPA), to explore her journey in the nonprofit sector and her visionary leadership at TNPA. Shannon brings a wealth of experience from her previous roles, including her impactful tenure as Chief Development Officer at Charity Navigator and Vice President of Donor Development at Special Olympics International. Recognized as one of The NonProfit Times Power & Influence Top 50 in 2022 and 2023, Shannon shares her insights on the current challenges and future trends in the nonprofit world.

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About Shannen McCracken

Shannon McCracken is the founding CEO of The Nonprofit Alliance (TNPA), an association launched in 2018 with unprecedented support to promote, protect, and strengthen the nonprofit sector. She was named to The NonProfit Times Power & Influence Top 50 in 2022 and 2023.
 
Prior to her role with TNPA, Shannon spent two years as Charity Navigator’s Chief
Development Officer, facilitating communication with nonprofit organizations and dramatically increasing resources to ensure successful implementation of a new strategic plan. She now serves on Charity Navigator’s board of directors.

Shannon spent 17 years with Special Olympics International, most recently as Vice President of Donor Development, building and managing a collaborative individual fundraising program on behalf of the global HQ and North American chapters. Shannon served as the DMA Nonprofit Federation Advisory Council Chair and Chair of the Ethics Committee. She is a Certified Association Executive with a master’s degree in Nonprofit and Association Management.

Connect with Shannon on LinkedIn
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Transcript

>> Julia Campbell: 0:00

Being a fundraiser is hard work. Not only is it time consuming, but you have to continually think of fresh and creative ways to engage your donors and supporters. If you need some fresh inspiration and ideas, check out fundraiser bot by donor Perfect. Donor Perfect's fundraiser bot is more than just a free tool for nonprofits. It's your fundraising ally, offering you the freedom to focus on your mission while transforming your content creation process. With just a few clicks, you can generate outlines for meetings, emails, social media posts, blogs, text messages, and more. Try it for free at, donorperfect.com bot and let me know what you think. Now on to the show. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello. Hi everyone. This is Nonprofit Nation. I'm, your host, Julia Campbell. In this episode, I'm going to sit down with Shannon McCracken, the founding CEO of the nonprofit alliance, to explore her journey in the nonprofit sector and her visionary leadership and trends in the sector that we need to be paying attention to. Shannon brings a wealth of experience from her previous roles, including her tenure as chief development officer at Charity Navigator and vice president of donor development at Special Olympics International. Shannon has also been recognized as one of the nonprofit Times Power and Influence top 50 in 2022 and 2023, and I'm really looking forward to her sharing her insights on the current challenges and future trends in the sector. So welcome, Shannon.

>> Shannon McCracken: 2:28

Thank you, Julia. Glad to be here.

>> Julia Campbell: 2:30

So how did you get started in nonprofit work? And tell me a little bit about your journey.

>> Shannon McCracken: 2:36

Sure. Gosh. Well, in college there was this moment when I thought, oh, I want to go into nonprofit work. And I looked at a social work degree, and because I really like volunteer experience, I was doing a but truly my passion, my career path that I saw for myself was in the advertising world. And so I had a communications major and I had an art and english and marketing minors. I was one of those who just wasn't sure what she wanted to be when she grew up. So tried on a lot of things came out of college and landed with a direct marketing firm. So advertising adjacent. And it so happened that the office that I worked out of, which was DC based, had all nonprofit and political clients. And that was when, my eyes were open to this idea of, oh, advertising, that concept of marketing and brand and engaging the public in something. And nonprofits do. There's this Venn diagram. They do overlap, and it just was this perfect moment for me. And so, I stayed there, learned the ropes for a couple years, and then, knew that I wanted to be within a nonprofit, and moved to Special Olympics. Was off and running.

>> Julia Campbell: 3:42

Wow. That. No, I think that. I really understand that. I never really wanted to be a social worker, but I did have a passion for activism and volunteering, but I was always very into marketing and leadership and management, and that was sort of how I transitioned into the sector. But I think, I think that's. That's just such an interesting journey. And we connected on LinkedIn. We've been connected for a while. But you posted something that I kind of riffed off of.

>> Shannon McCracken: 4:14

Ah.

>> Julia Campbell: 4:15

And it was a post in response to a recent episode of the Simon Sinek podcast, which is called a bit of optimism. So, Simon Sinek, for people that don't know, you know, he's a best selling author. He wrote, start with why I reference him very frequently in a lot of my work, that I do. So, he talked to in this episode with Scott Harrison of, charity Water. And Simon starts the episode, literally the very first sentences of the episode, and I'm going to quote him. A lot of people are cynical about charity and charitable giving, and they have every right to be. So much of our money that we give to charity never makes it to the cause. In fact, only a small percentage of it does. Too much goes to the overhead. Disproportionately high. Wow. Yeah. So you, like me, felt like that was a gut punch. Can you tell me about that?

>> Shannon McCracken: 5:10

Absolutely. I mean, it's. It's. So many of us have felt this gut punch over and over, and this. And it just. It hurts all the more when it's somebody like Simon Sinek with this large audience and somebody. And I'm like you. I read a lot of what he says and listen to what he says, and I. I think he often makes really compelling points or helps me think differently and better about things. And so to hear somebody like that say something like this was, just incredibly disappointing. and I shared that out on LinkedIn. You riffed off of it a number of other people did. There were a lot of conversations happening and shares and new posts. So it's clearly a pain point for us.

>> Julia Campbell: 5:50

It clearly opened up, this conversation again. And what I noticed was that people were really frustrated, not necessarily in his comments, but that we're still talking about this. And, like, why do you think this misconception, this overhead myth, is so pervasive?

>> Shannon McCracken: 6:08

Well, it's probably because there's an absence of something more clear to go on. And so what I mean by that is, in the for profit world, in the corporate world, companies have a very clear way of showing the impact of investor dollars, right? So their financials are very clear and standardized of how they need to report profits. they are transparent. Those reports are available to shareholders and investors. They are regulated. And that's a basic measurement. Are you making more money than what you're spending? What is that profitability? And what is your projection for how that will continue to grow and scale? On the nonprofit side, where we are not measured on profits, we don't have that same, ah, standardized balance sheet. And while nonprofits are really good at talking about their purpose, of why they exist, I know storytelling is your lane, Julia. And nonprofits can tell stories about the work they do and also can talk about activities and outputs. Nonprofits struggle a little bit more with talking about outcomes and really about solutions and how those solutions scale. and there's not a standardized measure. So a donor or general public or media or regulator can't take two of those measurements and put them side by side and sort of assess where my donor dollars have a bigger impact on this issue or this problem that I care about. And so, in absence of somebody that something that could and transparent, the default is to go to what is a common reported, figure, which is what we put on our ir's form, nine hundred ninety s. And our, charitable registrations. And that's all financial. And so then it becomes a very simple efficiency ratio.

>> Julia Campbell: 8:03

I just think it's so interesting when he said, so much of our money that we give to charity never makes it to the cause. And he doesn't back it up with any data or statistics or really anything concrete. It's more just like a feeling that he has. It's really, that's really what bothered me, is perpetuating this myth. And also, what does making it to the cause mean, right, for so many people out there? If you're a teacher, that you're a teacher, you are the cause. Like, you are the person that is actually implementing the mission. and I think that's just really where people get hung up. they hear the news stories about CEO's taking private jets, which is maybe one nonprofit out of how many millions in the United States or internationally. and they think that everyone's living these extravagant lives. So what are some ways that the sector can combat this misinformation? Like, how can we advocate for ourselves and say that this is a myth and that we are nonprofits are really worth investing in?

>> Shannon McCracken: 9:13

great question. And one we've all been trying to tackle for a long time, right? So there are no easy solutions or we would have done it already. One is certainly getting our arms around our impact measurements and taking ownership of that. So how can any one organization start to measure, the impact of the work that they do, and not just the outputs and the activity numbers? So that's one piece. Secondly is really, and we saw this on all the LinkedIn posts, Julia. we're really good at convincing ourselves. We have this wonderful echo chamber of like, yes, so critically important to invest in technology and people and operations and insurance and making sure the lights turn on in the office and all of those pieces. We all believe that wholeheartedly. We're not the audience that needs to be convinced. And so it is much more about, the media and the, charity regulators and the general public that we need to be framing these discussions with and having some of that bravery to stand up to some of those stories, and push back on these perceptions. But it is not going to be an overnight light switch. and we can't just say the measurement you're using is bad or wrong or false. We have to provide a better alternative.

>> Julia Campbell: 10:33

Exactly. We have to provide better alternatives. Now, you are on the board of charity navigator. I know you've worked for them. this is an organization that some might see as either currently perpetuating or maybe did perpetuate the overhead myth with the rating system. So maybe not overtly. So how do you think ratings organizations, organizations like charity Navigator, should be taking the lead in addressing this issue?

>> Shannon McCracken: 11:02

Yes, and I'm, glad you asked, innately believe that we need third party evaluators, because that is going to push against this, ah, public trust cloud. Right. And not just about nonprofits, about anything. Public trust. You look at all of the studies and all of the measurements of trust, and it's declining everywhere. And third party evaluators who can be independent sources are part of that solution and part of the how that will shift attitudes or reassure people about a sector or an organization. So I believe in the value of those. Ten plus years ago, I was one of the loud voices criticizing charity navigator for their, simplified measurements that were based on initially only on financials, and then eventually also accountability and transparency measures. as one step towards the improvement. I reached out to the then new CEO who was coming in, and I heard his vision for wanting to move measurement beyond those initial metrics and really wondering out loud how to do that, how to start talking about impact as the foremost measurement here, how to build bridges with nonprofits. to that point, charity navigator had really intentionally kept an arm's length distance from nonprofits, as you know, as a way of maintaining their independence and unbiased approach. But not having nonprofits in that feedback loop was, at that point, problematic. so I got to come on board then as staff, which I don't think anyone was more surprised than I was when I did that, but it was about in a development role, it was about raising the resources to help make some of that vision a reality. And it was about being at the table for some of that strategic visioning. And, ten years later, the charity navigator is playing, and will continue to play an important role in changing the attitudes. Exactly what we're saying about expanding the measurements, about keeping financials part of the picture, right? Because financial help is critical. If an organization is not going to still be in business a year or two from now, that may not be where I want to put my donor dollars for long term solutions. so financials and. And governance are key to a nonprofit sustainability. It's not the be all, end all story. And how do we talk about the impact that they're making? Charity navigators at the forefront of that.

>> Julia Campbell: 13:29

Let's talk about being the chief development officer for an organization that is predominantly based on advocacy, thought leadership, research. So it's nothing. Puppies, kittens, children, solving world hunger, curing cancer. A lot of my listeners, a lot of my clients run into this, you know, they run into this imposter syndrome where they think we're working on these bigger issues or we're working to further systematic change. So, in your work, how did you convince donors that the work of, charity navigator was. Was worth spending their money on? And how did you connect with donors in that way?

>> Shannon McCracken: 14:15

Yes, it's hard. It's a much harder case, I think. It's, not that anybody's job as a fundraiser is easier, but you're right, it's certainly easier when you can talk about children and kittens and something that people just. You already have a foot in the door before you start telling your story. For charity Navigator, the case for support is really around the strengthening of the sector.

>> Julia Campbell: 14:35

M right.

>> Shannon McCracken: 14:36

So it's. And the importance of having some of that infrastructure in place, having some of those safeguards about making information accessible to donors. So people who contribute to charity navigator, first of all, they're contributing to other organizations. So there's already this clear charitable inclination. They value specific causes, as we all do. So they have, and that runs a full spectrum of charity navigator users and donors. and also they want to ensure that the, sector remains vibrant and vital as it is today. And they see that their investment there is part of that. And we have donors who contribute a small amount, almost like a tip, you know? So I really want to put all of my money behind, veterans and service members, but also I want this space to remain healthy. And so here's a little bit extra for charity navigator, also very significant donors and funders who are at the table and believe in the mission and want that kind of, rigor and standards and upholding the strength of the.

>> Julia Campbell: 15:39

Sector to remain, now, in your work as the CEO of the nonprofit alliance, you encounter a wide variety of organizations, large and small, all kinds of verticals, all kinds of causes. What do you see? and we've talked a lot about challenges, so maybe we'll talk more about opportunities in a minute. But what do you see as the biggest challenges facing the sector right now?

>> Shannon McCracken: 16:07

I think, we talked a little bit about trust. And this challenge of trust, or the changing definition, perceptions of trust are one of the biggest challenges right now. and again, it's not unique to the nonprofit sector. It's not something that happened overnight, sort of on a steady decline, and we see it showing up in different ways. Right. So we see it in the decline in the number of households who are giving in traditional ways to nonprofits. We see it in the. In studies that show a declining number of people who self identify as benefiting from nonprofit services in their day to day lives. And so when there's this sense of distance, of not, being part of something, of not. Of it being a them instead of a me, and we, That separateness, the divisiveness that we see in pretty much every aspect of our society right now is. Is affecting nonprofits, too. We need to shrink that gap.

>> Julia Campbell: 17:07

What are some of the biggest opportunities that we can take advantage of?

>> Shannon McCracken: 17:13

I think one of them is the younger workforce that's coming in. So all of the aspects and characteristics of our 20 something colleagues that make workplace a little bit tense or challenging right now are the very strengths that are going to lead this sector in the next ten and 20 plus years. Right. So the coming in and not being afraid to challenge status quo, the, tech nativity, the openness to trying new things that not just looking at something and taking it as, as presented like this is how we do things. But really, what if we tried it this way? What if we. Willingness, ah, to kind of break the rules, if you will. and that's, that's hard when you're coming in at a, ah, more junior staff level and trying to push those bounds. But when you think of those individuals as our mid level managers in ten and 15 years and emerging leaders in 20 years, that characteristic, that personality is going to, I think, help push us forward.

>> Julia Campbell: 18:18

Right. I completely agree, and I really think a rising tide lifts all ships. And I think nonprofits need to be focused more on collaboration instead of competition. Could you, can you tell us, like, what is your advice for nonprofits that are looking for this kind of collaboration? Like, where are, like, where are the opportunities there? And what maybe should we be focused on what's kind of a first step if we do really want to collaborate with other organizations?

>> Shannon McCracken: 18:51

Yes, I think so. The scarcity mindset, we've sort of talked a way around that, right? If we step away from the scarcity mindset and a little bit of the competition and just think, what is another organization doing that aligns well? Are we serving the same audiences? So from that programmatic sense, I think we can, we can see some of that more clearly or obviously where two companion organizations could align, that same sort of potential exists within fundraising, exists within other aspects of the organization. So where can there be shared learnings and start to build bridges in that way? Ah, a lot of the lines are going to either necessarily or intentionally blur, I think as we, again, going back to the trends in charitable giving and as we see giving us a numbers ticking down, a number of households that are giving, more reliance on larger givers. It's not that our everyday americans are suddenly less generous over time, have become less generous. It's just that we're giving back in ways that the nonprofit sector isn't necessarily measuring. It's not coming in for our traditional channels or the activities that we drive and hold the data on. And so as we look at what companies and B Corps are doing, as we look at what community, organizers are doing, that may not be under a nonprofit structure, but, giving in that sense. Of course, the crowdfunding and direct giving. And there are lots of other measures, and it's not just about understanding those. It's about how do we, if that's where people want to get engaged with their dollars, their time, their passion, their advocacy. And yet nonprofits offer this structure to really be problem solvers. How do we create both ends around that? And I think that's exciting potential for the next ten years.

>> Julia Campbell: 20:42

The scarcity mindset is very real, and I recently talked to Woodrow Rosenbaum, who, I'm sure, you know, the chief data officer at, giving Tuesday, and we were talking about the scarcity mindset and talking about how generosity is still thriving. But perhaps what we're measuring is not as accurately conveying that. People are still being incredibly generous in different ways. And what they found at GivingTuesday is that one act of generosity actually is indicative of other acts of generosity. So if I'm volunteering or if I'm giving money to the PTO or I giving money to my neighbors, you know, whatever it is, the sports team, then I'm much more likely to want to give to a nonprofit. And I think those opportunities are out there. And perhaps we're not asking enough or we're not taking advantage of a lot of this generosity because we're thinking we're competing the scarcity mindset, donor fatigue. We have all these myths and excuses and obstacles that we put in our way. what are some tips that you have for, you know, nonprofit leadership? how can we get over. How can we get over ourselves? How can we get over these. The scarcity mindset and the myths and realize that we have more agency than perhaps we think?

>> Shannon McCracken: 22:11

Yes. Well, it really. Two thoughts there, Julia, and one, I want to step back to something you just said about the generosity begets generosity. It builds this habit, it builds this, almost personality behavior. And one of the reasons for some of the decline in giving or giving through traditional ways is we can tie that, we can correlate that to decline in people attending religious services. because when you grow up going to church or temple or, fill in the blank for your faith, when you grow up and you see your parents and your grandparents and your neighbors and everybody passing a plate and putting their little bit in week after week, it teaches you that behavior, and it teaches you some of that trust. Right? I'm putting my dollars in this plate that gets passed along to somebody else to decide how those should be spent and I'm doing it because it will help someone else. And I'm making the choice to give away something that I have so that it benefits something else. and as we have fewer people witnessing that behavior as children, then what is it that is filling in that gap of teaching people how to be charitable? and I don't think we filled that gap. and it doesn't necessarily have to come through religion, but it has to come from somewhere. So is it in schools? Is it in community activities? Is it in changing family structure behaviors? So there's something that has to teach that, and we need to figure that out. I want to. What you said spawned all that and bubbling in my brain, so I want to share that. And then coming back to your question of how do we get past this idea of scarcity? And, some of it is risk averse. A lot of it is risk aversion. It's recognizing that we do have finite resources. That's never going to change. We have finite resources and this fear of, spending them or using them where it's people using them in places, that means removing them from what we're already doing, because we know what we're doing works to whatever degree, but we're doing something right now because we know it's successful, we know it's the way we've done it, and it produces this predictable output. That's true in fundraising, it's true in program, it's true in everything. To do something else with finite resources means we have to remove ourselves from what is comfortable and what is proven and what is expected and put it into something else. And that's scary because we're accountable. We're, accountable to our donors, we're accountable to the people and the causes and the communities that we serve. And it's scary to show that you might do less in the process of burning. That's probably not a solution, Julia. It's just further discussion of the question that you raised. Yeah, it's a reality.

>> Julia Campbell: 24:58

Yeah. There's a lot to discuss and think about and huge implications, you know, for the future of the sector. I want to talk about a trend that has serious implications for, the future of the nonprofit sector. AI and nonprofits. And people might immediately start tuning out because they're either scared of it or they think it doesn't relate to them. But you were recently named to the fundraising, AI advisory board, so congratulations. I saw that on LinkedIn.

>> Shannon McCracken: 25:30

Thank you.

>> Julia Campbell: 25:31

How do you see the role of AI in benefiting nonprofits in the work that we do.

>> Shannon McCracken: 25:39

I love that you use the question or the word benefiting in that question, because, I'm the newbie to this advisory council, and, what I really value and appreciate that they are doing is talking about not just responsible and ethical AI, but beneficial AI. And nonprofits have to be part of that conversation. It's not just that. It can be, ethical, like something can be ethical and still not be benefiting anyone, or only benefiting certain people in certain ways and then creating harm for somebody else. And so really putting that beneficial piece, what truly are we trying to do with technology and power? and so I love that that is part of what this, this group is doing and advancing. Nonprofits have a responsibility to be part of the AI conversation right now. If we sit back and wait for those who are better resourced, more, at the steering wheel on creating technology, if we wait for them to come up with the solutions, then it's too late. Then we were not part of the building blocks of what will be our new status quo, what already is becoming our new status quo. And we have that responsibility for not only our own organizations, for the sector, for the partner companies we work with, who enable our programs and our fundraising and so forth, but also, again, to the communities and the people we serve, who very often are not going to have a voice in us. So how does this, how does AI, how does our use of AI, how does regulation of AI impact marginalized communities who are not part of developing systems and products and tools, who are not thinking about this in their day to day lives, but will absolutely become either part of the haves or the have nots if we don't get this right.

>> Julia Campbell: 27:26

I completely agree. I love that you said we have a responsibility. I believe that as well, in the work that I do around storytelling and social media. Now, I don't think we need to be on every channel. I don't think we need to be posting every day. But I do think we as a sector have a responsibility to be talking about the issues we're working on and elevating and amplifying the voices of our community, people that often don't have a voice, like you said. So we have that obligation to our work and just to the better good, to social change, to be part of these conversations. Because, yeah, if we just sit back and just let it happen to us, and if we're reactive and not proactive, then we are going to be left behind and it is going to be left up to these tech companies to control our future, which I don't think any of us want. So, that's why I really appreciate fundraising. AI and I was part of the summit last year. I know there's going to be another big, free virtual summit this year. So much research, there's so many work groups, there's so many surveys going out. what are some of the things that are on tap for fundraising, AI, that you are excited about as a board member?

>> Shannon McCracken: 28:46

Well, one of the pieces that I get to help bring into this conversation is the regulation that's going to happen around AI and legislators, Congress, they realize they waited way too long on social media. The horse was not only out of the barn, it was like, they still have cross the field off the horizon. Right? And you can't put the genie back in the bottle. And so they aren't going to make the same mistake twice. They're jumping on this early. They're crafting legislation around this. There's no. And the nonprofit alliance watches a lot of data and data privacy legislation. That's one of our primary issues. And so AI is part of all of that now. Nobody puts out a bill without mentioning AI. And the challenge, of course, is that it's evolving so quickly, and so what makes sense today won't make sense tomorrow. And how do you write legislation around that? so, yes, we acknowledge that and that this is something that will have to evolve. And evolving legislation quickly is not something that happens well, in this country or in democracy in general. but, so that's one, one challenge, the other big baseline challenge is that the people who are responsible for writing legislation are people like you and me. Right. So they don't have this insider brilliance about AI. They're learning about it at the same rate, at the same pace that we are. M they're either excited about it or, intimidated by it, or, they just know that it's their responsibility to put up some guardrails. and so our responsibility is the nonprofit sector. And what fundraising, AI and others are doing is, needs to be looking at legislation as it's drafted and being part of that voice of, oh, let me help you, mister and misses legislator. Let me help you understand what the unintended consequences of this could be, because you wouldn't know it in your role and in your, you could come from business or tech or marketing or healthcare, and. But if you're not sitting in the nonprofit space, we have this perspective. We can add to the culture collective good here. and that's something that hasn't been part of the work to this point that fundraising AI is doing, but that, the nonprofit alliance and I get.

>> Julia Campbell: 30:54

To bring, oh, that's so great. So let's take it, let's take a different tack. I want to talk about your sort of career experience. So for those nonprofit professionals out there that are looking to sort of build this career in nonprofit leadership, do you have any key pieces of advice, based on your experience?

>> Shannon McCracken: 31:18

There's a lot of good advice out there on this. For me, it was about not staying in my little square of my role. So it was going to industry conferences, it was participating in industry events. It was raising my hand to volunteer, to accept, opportunities to speak at conferences, and which brings visibility. It also brings just, new volunteer opportunities. Who are the first ones tapped? When you need something, you look at speaker lists, you look at volunteer committees. And so my first job out of college, I got from an ad in the newspaper. My second job I got because there was a job search. Everything that happened in my career after that was because of the people I knew and the, not just what I learned from doing these other, tasks or other, other. what's the word? Not just from what I learned from being outside of my specific job description, but the connections that I had, the people I was able to meet along the way. Then when an opportunity that came up from maybe positions that didn't even exist, weren't even posted, but it was like a need, or it was a, and somebody in the room said, hey, what about Shannon McCracken? We should, we should call her. And sometimes it was the right opportunity for me, and sometimes it was the right opportunity for me to help put somebody else in that place. But I think that's the advice, is to get out there and get involved, find an association, find a group of colleagues, build your own network, get known, meet other people. And that's where opportunities come from.

>> Julia Campbell: 32:50

Yeah. People ask me that question all the time as well. Like, how did you build your network? And I said, just one person by one person. I'm just sitting, you know, 14 years ago when I started my business, sitting alone in my home office, really just trying to connect. I was using social media a lot to connect. That was when Twitter was really popular and going to conferences and speaking at that point for free and doing as much visibility, you know, work and networking as I could do with, you know, I had one small child at the time, and I understand, you know, people, it's hard for a lot of people to put themselves out there and do that, but if they are looking to build their career in leadership, it's really important to be building that sort of strategic network. But then a lot of these people are really good friends now, so it's. It works out.

>> Shannon McCracken: 33:43

Yeah, good friends. And I just want to say, doing the scary things. Julia, you just talked about starting your own business, and, you know, really. And, there are days that are daunting. There are this opportunity right now with the nonprofit alliance. When I was first approached about this, I laughed and said, I am not the right person for this, but I'm really interested in what people are talking about, and I want to help be part of the solution. So. And then I did the scary thing, and I was like, what if I am the right person? What if I could become the right person? So, yeah, it's doing. It's getting out that safety. We talked a little bit about, we touched on risk and risk aversion within organizations, and I think it's true for individuals, too. If you think of risk as only the moonshots, then it's really hard to do it. And it's scary and risky. Dangerous. But risk is not binary. Risk is not stay in my very safe zone or throw all caution to the wind and either, you know, fly or sink. Risk is incremental. Do the. Do the little small things, and then the bigger things will come.

>> Julia Campbell: 34:45

Risk is incremental. I love that. So, what keeps you motivated and passionate about your work in the nonprofit sector, especially during, you know, incredibly challenging times?

>> Shannon McCracken: 34:59

I mean, we all have those days that we say, can't I just take a job that's like nine to five? I walk out at the end. I don't think about it again until my next

day starts. I don't lie awake at 02: 35:08

00 a.m. worried, about revenue or people.

>> Julia Campbell: 35:14

Hm.

>> Shannon McCracken: 35:14

Or saving the world. I think we all have those, but I just don't think I would be happy in that either. I love that we get to, and I say we because it is such a community is an overused word, but it feels like a community. As you were saying, it's this sector, this network of friends and people who are really passionate about the work that they're doing, whether that's work is within an association or work inside a non profit or with partner aligned companies. I just can't imagine being anywhere else. I don't know that I've really ever sat down and said, I think I need to leave the nonprofit sector. It's just nothing. How I'm wired.

>> Julia Campbell: 35:52

I love that. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. So where can people find you online? Connect with you and learn more about the nonprofit alliance?

>> Shannon McCracken: 36:02

Yes, connect with me on LinkedIn. Follow the nonprofit alliance on LinkedIn. You can visit our website@tmpa.org, dot. We have lots of information about upcoming events, about the policy issues that we're working on at the federal and state level, and some other programs folks may be interested in, including our internship placement program. So check us out.

>> Julia Campbell: 36:24

You've been posting about that on LinkedIn. It looks really fantastic. Thank you for that. Okay, well, wonderful. It's been wonderful to have you here. This was a really great discussion. and yeah, I can't wait to see what's next for the sector, what's next for the alliance. Thanks so much.

>> Shannon McCracken: 36:39

Thank you, Julia.

>> Julia Campbell: 36:44

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review, because this tells other people that my. My podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on Instagram. Uliacampbell 77 keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.